Options Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from March 23, 2020 Options

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Conversations with creators and thinkers who are charting the way forward in a tech-saturated society. Tech, community, video games, and whatever else is next.

Mondays 6 - 7pm (EDT) | On WFMU (Info) | 91.1, 90.1, 91.9 FM & wfmu.org
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Options March 23, 2020: Albert Fox Cahn and Liz O'Sullivan from Surveillance Technology Oversight Project

Listen to this show: MP3 - 128K |  Pop‑up player!

Tonight: Albert Fox Cahn and Liz O'Sullivan from Surveillance Technology Oversight Project



Tonight's guests:

• STOP - Surveillance Technology Oversight Project: stopspying.org, postact.org, and on Twitter: @STOPSpyingNY

• Albert Fox Cahn, cofounder of STOP: @FoxCahn

• Liz O'Sullivan, cofounder of STOP: @lizjosullivan (past guest from Nov 18, 2019 show)

• Thanks also to special reporter Dan Casey: @casimal

To discuss:

• Dan Casey's pointers: Facebook fumbles its response to coronavirus (Noah Kulwin in the Outline); TikTok unfurls its secret digital velvet rope, and no uglies or poors need apply (Sam Biddle, Paulo Victor Ribeiro, Tatiana Dias in The Intercept)

Google, other companies get your data if you use Verily's coronavirus site (Alfred Ng in CNet, March 17). Albert Fox Cahn quoted: "If profit driven companies are going to play a central role in our response to the COVID-19 pandemic, we must take steps to ensure that they are serving the public, not just their bottom line."

Coronavirus pandemic changes how your privacy is protected (Alfred Ng in CNet, March 21). As Sidney Fussell points out, "privacy enforcement is already being shirked because of the pandemic. It's all starting!"

As Coronavirus Surveillance Escalates, Personal Privacy Plummets (today, March 23, in the NYT). Albert Fox Cahn is quoted: "We could so easily end up in a situation where we empower local, state or federal government to take measures in response to this pandemic that fundamentally change the scope of American civil rights." (See also the quote from past guest Chris Gilliard: "That could extend to anyone, to suddenly have the status of your health blasted out to thousands or potentially millions of people . . . It’s a very strange thing to do because, in the alleged interest of public health, you are actually endangering people.")

- - -

Check out techtonic.fm for recent Techtonic interviews and Little Slice of Tech Pie segments.

PODCAST: Subscribe to the Techtonic podcast

Artist Track Album Images Approx. start time
  Albert Fox Cahn and Liz O'Sullivan from Surveillance Technology Oversight Project - and special reporter Dan Casey.
Tomaš Dvořák  Game Boy Tune   Options  
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  Mark's intro    
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  Special reporter Dan Casey    
Options
0:01:24 (MP3 | Pop‑up)
  Interview w/Albert Fox Cahn & Liz O'Sullivan    
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0:13:53 (MP3 | Pop‑up)
The Raffeys  Big Brother   Options Eep Snörpsh Now 
Options
0:55:19 (MP3 | Pop‑up)


Listener comments!

Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:00pm melinda:

Hi techtons!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:00pm listener james from westwood:

How do, Mark and all! (And Board Op Olivia!)
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:00pm ultradamno:

Hello Mark! Techccines!
  6:00pm Dancasey1:

Evenin’
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:01pm Phillippe Bastille:

Hey Mark! Hey Star Tecks!
  6:01pm John from Florham park:

Hello fellow technoids
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:01pm Handy Haversack:

Hi, Mark and all Techyon particles! I gotta go pour that Tech Gin and get ready to mix it up with all of you!
  6:02pm johnzo:

aloha all
  6:02pm Richard from Brooklyn:

hello, all
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:02pm chresti:

Hi Mark & Techtoniques!
  6:02pm John from Florham park:

Hey handy
  6:02pm Dave Miss:

Howdy all lock-tonics!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:03pm Mark Hurst:

Hi all, thanks for joining!
Avatar 6:03pm herb.nyc:

Too interviews! We can't wait two listen. Go wfmu. Go mark.
  6:03pm andrewb:

yay tech-ton
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:03pm Mark Hurst:

Olivia, thanks for board-op'ing!
  6:03pm Listener Robert:

Good news -- www.cdc.gov... . Just look thru March 14, the last date CDC doesn't expect to add to the numbers of. This thing peaked long BEFORE these extreme control measures!
Avatar 6:03pm JakeGould:

Going to create an app for washing hands: It‘s going to be called “WSHHNDS.”
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:03pm Handy Haversack:

Hey, John!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:03pm Mark Hurst:

Dan Casey here on the chat board - hello sir!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:04pm Ken From Hyde Park:

A shot of Techtomycin will alleviate the symptoms!
  6:04pm Dancasey1:

Ayo!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:04pm Mark Hurst:

No snake oil here on Techtonic :)
Avatar 6:04pm JakeGould:

@ListenerRobert: “Illnesses that began during this time may not yet be reported.” Sorry but I’m not comforted by incomplete data.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:05pm olivia:

no prob, Mark, hey all!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:08pm Bas NL:

Hi Mark! And thanks Olivia! Hi all!
  6:08pm Dancasey1:

Hey Olivia, thanks for holding down le fort (as the French say)
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:08pm Mark Hurst:

hi Bas!
Avatar 6:08pm coelacanth∅:

hey Mark and all
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:08pm Mark Hurst:

hi coel!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:09pm Webhamster Henry:

Hi Mark! Everyone's online now!
  6:09pm Listener Robert:

@JakeGould, look at where that caveat starts: March 15. That's why you should look only thru March 14, and it shows a downward trend to that date. Tomorrow you should look thru March 15, etc. The data ARE complete thru March 14.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:09pm olivia:

haha hey dan!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:09pm Mark Hurst:

@Webham I keep hearing about this "internet" - I guess it's for real?
  6:09pm Albert FOx Cahn:

Hey Folks!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:10pm Webhamster Henry:

It's like CI$, but you don't have to pay as much!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:10pm Mark Hurst:

Albert Fox Cahn, welcome to the chat board!
  6:10pm queems:

my sister sent me an article from back in july about how zoom was being used for surveillance purposes. apparently the issue was addressed, but i deleted it off of my computer anyway
  6:10pm Albert Fox Cahn:

Thanks Mark, excited to hear the ep!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:11pm Mark Hurst:

@queems there are recent reports (like in the past week or two) about continued surveillance on Zoom.
  6:12pm queems:

@mark there goes my virtual happy hour
Avatar 6:12pm coelacanth∅:

(never heard of "tick tock" before)
Avatar 6:12pm JakeGould:

Mark, are you going to discuss how working from home has not changed some workplace privacy issues?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:13pm listener james from westwood:

They never shoulda killed Vine.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:13pm chris:

how do privacy concerns change in the face of a pandemic and real-world consequences? south korea phone tracking - www.washingtonpost.com...
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:13pm Mark Hurst:

@coel see the article on TikTok listed in the "To Discuss" section.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:13pm Webhamster Henry:

TikTok shows me sheetrocking videos.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:13pm chris:

oh, and hi, Mark and folks.
Avatar 6:14pm coelacanth∅:

you better do something about those nails
Avatar 6:14pm JakeGould:

@ListenerRobert: Fair. But personally I would feel better when a vaccine and detection for anti-bodies test exists. For example, I am quote certain I had this Coronavirus on February 15th. But without a way to test at this point… Who knows?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:14pm Handy Haversack:

@queems, in response to what you posted about the NASTY habits of Zoom, and knowing what we all know about Google Hangouts, a friend who deals with cyber freedom issues had this to say:

" I've just been using meet.jit.si with either Chromium or Chrome
or Firefox web browsers for webconferencing with people who dont' have a
lot of capacity for technical nerdery. I see it's linked in that
article, too.

There's another instance of the same software over at
meet.mayfirst.org if you don't want your data going through the
jitsi organization's servers for a group meeting."

(Repeat post from Olivia's show in case you didn't see it there.)
  6:15pm queems:

thanks @handy! i missed it on the last playlist!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:15pm chris:

ah, we will talk about my question above. cool.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:15pm Greg from ZONE 5:

Evening, Mark & all!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:16pm Mark Hurst:

@chris on the same wavelength!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:16pm ultradamno:

Does instagram's algorithm filter out less expensive food pictures?
  6:16pm liz o'sullivan:

hi, this is liz!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:16pm Handy Haversack:

The rhetoric at meet.mayfirst.org looks very reassuring, @queems.

Hi, @Greg!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:16pm Mark Hurst:

Welcome, Liz! Thanks for joining in!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:16pm Ken From Hyde Park:

Look at Saturday! Toilet paper for ants!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:16pm Mark Hurst:

@Greg good to see you here, sir!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:17pm Mark Hurst:

@Ken that's just the seedling - it grows to full size
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:17pm Phillippe Bastille:

Saw some stock market news today that Zoom stock is up 50% the past 5 days...
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:18pm Handy Haversack:

Don't cough by the LINKNYC spy towers!
  6:20pm gfunkhairpiece:

Worried about anonymity in recovery meetings here. Zoom has been a major tool for many of the recovery people I know; discussion has been occurring but it's hard to challenge given the circumstances.
  6:20pm John from Florham park:

@Handy I have just joined that group you told me about
  6:21pm Listener Robert:

@JakeGould, a good vaccine will probably take years. Meanwhile as this strain lapses into the background, interest will be lost for developing a vaccine for this strain; there'll always be new ones! There's unlikely to be developed a routine as for influenza where they can crank out a new vaccine in months.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:21pm Ken From Hyde Park:

--> Toilet Paper Image -->

My Head

(I get it now.)
Avatar 6:23pm JakeGould:

@ListenerRobert: What about just anti-body detection to see how many people might have had it but didn’t get the worst of it? I think real numbers of infection versus acute symptoms versus death has value.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:25pm Handy Haversack:

Which one is that, @John?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:25pm Mark Hurst:

See links to STOP in the "Tonight's guests" section on this page. Also, Liz and Albert are both here on the comment board, if you have questions!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:26pm fred:

I got into trouble by bringing home my work computer (MAC/IP address mismatch, I guess). Paypal account blocked, but I never used my work computer for that. There's some data sharing going on behind the scenes
  6:26pm liz o'sullivan:

:waves:
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:26pm Webhamster Henry:

So how does the 4th amendment get involved with this? Where's the cyber warrant?
  6:27pm John from Florham park:

@Handy meet jit si on your recommendation
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:27pm chris:

there's a new technique for vaccines being tried now, as i understand it. rather than imprinting the full virus dna on the immune system, the newer technique implants the viral reproduction component RNA on the immune system. if this works, exposure to the virus will be countered by the body's ability to shut off the viruses ability to reproduce. also, if this works, then vaccines can be quickly developed for new viruses. like *very* quickly. i'm not an expert, though, so don't quote me. but as i understand it, this is very promising new technology.
  6:27pm Listener Robert:

@JakeGould, of course a serologic test would be valuable.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:28pm Bas NL:

Time for a face-blocker in Photoshop?
  6:28pm Albert Fox Cahn:

Webhamster: Currently, there is no requirement to obtain a warrant or even an subpoena to run facial recognition searches.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:28pm Handy Haversack:

Very cool, John! I'm hoping to use it for the games I run.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:29pm Mark Hurst:

@Handy what games?
  6:29pm John from Florham park:

Handy how about using for a vid chat among regular chatters
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:31pm Webhamster Henry:

tech is neutral and doesn't have a signature.
Avatar 6:31pm JakeGould:

@John: Never.
  6:31pm Listener Robert:

@chris, we know one attempt at such a nucleic acid vaccine against the previously identified SARS-associated coronavirus flopped, but it's not clear that the method can't succeed in the future.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:32pm chris:

ok, cool. thanks, Robert.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:32pm Handy Haversack:

@Mark Hurst, I have been running an old-school (1981-ish) D&D game or clones that of for like 17 years now with some very close friends. We had our first online session over Zoom yesterday -- glad to have found a better platform!
  6:32pm John from Florham park:

@Jakegould another idea shot to hell:)
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:33pm Handy Haversack:

*clones thereof ^^
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:33pm Ken From Hyde Park:

Seven Second Delay had a G**gle Hangouts video chat episode once ... once.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:33pm Handy Haversack:

Once, Johnny!
Avatar 6:33pm JakeGould:

@Ken: Cause of much PTSD.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:34pm Carmichael:

So when I get my annual "flu" shot, what am I really getting?
  6:34pm Dancasey1:

@liz “Shazam for people” is perfect
  6:34pm John from Florham park:

@KFHP did not end well right?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:34pm Carmichael:

Or Face Hound.
  6:35pm liz o'sullivan:

thanks! i was working in computer vision when it became commercially viable. we used to joke about "shazam for X" all the time.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:35pm chris:

Carm, in layman's terms, you're getting a dead version of the virus, so that if your immune system sees the virus later, it can quickly kill it.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:36pm Phillippe Bastille:

At least Zoom has entertainment value: www.reddit.com...
  6:36pm Dancasey1:

Looking forward (or maybe not) to “Shazam for smells”
  6:37pm Dancasey1:

Smellzam
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:37pm Handy Haversack:

@liz: Do you know whether there's any sort of trend among arrangements between NYC developers and either Big Tech or law enforcement? I see the new bldgs. in my neighborhood, and there are a lot of them, absolutely FESTOONED with cameras. Far more than are needed for any legit security concern.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:37pm Handy Haversack:

*"legit"^^

Ahem.
  6:38pm liz o'sullivan:

good question Handy! it's probably small tech, which i've often said is worse than big tech. tons of shady startups selling snakeoil to unsuspecting civillians
Avatar 6:38pm JakeGould:

@Carmichael: What you are gettin are flu antibodies that are determined by scientific best guesses of what flu strains might be coming around that year. It’s a gamble. If you get a flu shot but then get the flu, it means you got a strain that was not factored into the model used to determine things.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:38pm Ken From Hyde Park:

@John - I'd say it was on par with other 7SD episodes.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:38pm Webhamster Henry:

Now imagine the Clearview database feeding into Deep Fakes.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:38pm Carmichael:

But which virus, Chris? All of them, the most recent one, the next one?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:38pm Megaroni:

Thank you Techtonic for continuing to call big tech especially in times like this!
  6:38pm liz o'sullivan:

startups often have the worst ethics abuses when they're competing with big tech, and just get desperate.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:39pm chris:

Carm, what Jake said. its a best guess.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:39pm Mark Hurst:

@Megaroni thanks! And let's thank Liz and Albert for joining in live, too! (And special reporter Dan Casey here on the board as well)
  6:39pm John from Florham park:

@KFHP gotcha
Avatar 6:39pm JakeGould:

Also, startups are hyper motivated to cooperate with people in power. Their whole business model is to build something so someone else uses it.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:39pm Webhamster Henry:

haha @liz said "startup" and "ethics" inthe same sentence!
Avatar 6:40pm JakeGould:

Starups are like a Three Stooges film where Shemp becomes a millionaire.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:40pm Mark Hurst:

@Webham careful, don't bring those two words too close together!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:40pm Webhamster Henry:

@jakeGould the model is work well enough to get acquired!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:40pm Handy Haversack:

@liz: that makes sense. And if the data are sellable, I can't imagine Two Trees or other big developers in NYC would hesitate much over monetizing them.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:40pm chris:

Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:42pm Mark Hurst:

@Albert's point about the Census "lockbox" is so important. Worth more discussion (any journalists listening in: TIP!)
Avatar 6:43pm JakeGould:

@WebmasgterHenry: You mean Shemp would not win?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:43pm Webhamster Henry:

@JakeGould Shemp wins big!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:44pm Handy Haversack:

I tried filling out my census form the other night. The govt. website assures me that it will be ready to receive my data by March 12. So take confidence!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:44pm Mark Hurst:

@Liz it's interesting (and I agree) that "compete with Big Tech" almost inevitably means "engage in unethical behavior"
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:44pm chresti:

My son just got a job with a new start up, not sure what it is, something that helps people manage their finances.
  6:45pm liz o'sullivan:

it's almost like we have to think about antitrust and ethics in the same breath... hmmm...
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:45pm Mark Hurst:

@Liz let's BREAK THEM UP
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:45pm Handy Haversack:

Heh, Mark: that's always my reaction as someone without a phone: so I can't even go in?

(It applies to Yankee games: only options are smart phone or paper tix from the box office.)
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:46pm Mark Hurst:

(but that's a whole 'nother show)
  6:46pm liz o'sullivan:

hear hear!!
Avatar 6:46pm JakeGould:

I filled out my census form no issue last week. Maybe they are overloaded?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:46pm Mark Hurst:

@Handy at least they still accept paper. Probably not for long...
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:48pm Webhamster Henry:

I did the census too, but for some reason they didn't list "Vulcan" as ethnicity though.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:48pm Handy Haversack:

Yeah: I think the point is the team wants to completely control the secondary market.

Better than, e.g, the Rays, who have gone "cashless": i.e., fired 2/3 of the concession employees.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:49pm melinda:

@Ken I remember that. There were funny sound effects and Ken asked someone to draw a Hitler mustache on Andy.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:51pm listener james from westwood:

Well said on things going on pause!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:51pm Mark Hurst:

Go, STOP, go! www.stopspying.org and www.postact.org
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:52pm Carmichael:

@Henry, I normally check the "other" box and write in "Irish".
  6:52pm liz o'sullivan:

wooooo!!!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:53pm Mark Hurst:

@James I agree
Avatar 6:53pm JakeGould:

I saw lots of cops headed to the subway around 7:00pm last night. My understanding is they are charged with enforcing the 6 foot separation stuff. But I fear the homeless are geeing targeted as well. It was happening before, makes (sad) sense it would be happening again now.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:54pm Bas NL:

In The Netherlands there have been three court cases at late against government for their use of algorithms in detecting possible fraud. They were all won and government had to stop using the methods.
Avatar 6:54pm geezerette:

It's erie how well this virus works for the human malefactors.
Feels so much like a dress rehearsal.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:54pm Mark Hurst:

@Bas thanks - hadn't heard about that.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:55pm Handy Haversack:

I often fear greatly how letters to senators, congresspeople, even local officials might one day be used as criminal evidence.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:55pm Webhamster Henry:

Fascism and autocracy go hand and hand with disaster capitalism.
  6:56pm Dancasey1:

@bas I meant to forward that story to Mark, but lost it in a blizzard of other tabs! Similar legal tangles about algortihmically-enforced rights in India as well
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:56pm Bas NL:

Yes, in child support, tax and welfare.
  6:56pm Dave Miss:

Thanks for the 2 with links.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:56pm chris:

thanks, Albert and Liz. signed.

thanks, Mark. great show, dammit! :)
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:56pm melinda:

Thanks Mark!
  6:56pm johnzo:

thanks mark&fmu!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:56pm Mark Hurst:

@chris thanks!
@Dave thanks!
  6:56pm John from Florham park:

@Geezerette if I did not know any better I would think that it was on purpose and I am not wearing tinfoil
  6:56pm P-90:

Thanks Mark and friends.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:56pm listener james from westwood:

Excellent interviews; thanks, Mark and guests, and thanks, Olivia-in-the-shadows!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:56pm Bas NL:

Thanks Mark, Dan, Fox and Liz!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:56pm Ken From Hyde Park:

"Toss Tik Tok"
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm Phillippe Bastille:

@Handy 6:45 Taking your laptop to the game isn't an option?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm Webhamster Henry:

Yeesh! Thanks Mark & Guests!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm Handy Haversack:

Thanks, Mark and guests! Good being not anywhere near paranoid enough with all you good folx!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm Mark Hurst:

@P-90 @James thank you both
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm Bas NL:

(And Olivia of course!!)
  6:57pm johnzo:

wfmu wfmu we’re number 1 we’re number 1
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm Phillippe Bastille:

Thanks Mark, Olivia, interviewees
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm Webhamster Henry:

as if there will be any games anymore.
  6:57pm Dancasey1:

Great interview @liz/Albert!
Avatar 6:57pm coelacanth∅:

Thanks Mark! Thanks Albert & Liz & Dan!
  6:57pm Dancasey1:

And of course the gracious @Mark as well
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm Mark Hurst:

@KenFHP that would be a good addition. ... also Uninstall Uber, Lose Lyft, Something Something Snapchat
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:58pm Mark Hurst:

Yes thanks to Olivia for being board op once again! The WFMU staff are STARS
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:58pm Handy Haversack:

Skeleton Stars FTW!
  6:58pm Dancasey1:

Dropkick Dropbox, stuff Snapchat, if I start I’m not going to be able to stop doing this
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:59pm Mark Hurst:

@coel, @Dan, @Philippe, @Bas, everyone - thanks! (Dan, keep it going - Stuff Snapchat is a good one)
  6:59pm Dancasey1:

Props to @olivia & fellow skeletons in the crew!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:00pm Ken From Hyde Park:

Thanks, Mark and guests and board op and friends.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:00pm Mark Hurst:

You've never met better skeletons.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:01pm Mark Hurst:

We will get through this! Thanks, everyone, for tuning in. Be well.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:21pm chresti:

Thanks Mark and Olivia!
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