Favoriting Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from September 4, 2023 Favoriting

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Favoriting September 4, 2023: Coco Krumme, author, "Optimal Illusions"

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Today: Coco Krumme, author, "Optimal Illusions"

Optimal Illusions: The False Promise of Optimization, by Coco Krumme

cocofolio.com, Coco’s website

Badgers (animation): Wikipedia entry on the video from Sep 2, 2003




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Artist Track Images Approx. start time
  Coco Krumme, author, "Optimal Illusions"
Tomaš Dvořák  Game Boy Tune   Favoriting
Favoriting
 
  Mark's intro  
Favoriting
 
  Interview with Coco Krumme  
Favoriting
0:08:09 (MP3 | Pop-up)
  Mark's comments  
Favoriting
0:43:51 (MP3 | Pop-up)
Fifth District  Potter Potter Potter   Favoriting
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0:55:00 (MP3 | Pop-up)


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Listener comments!

Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:00pm
ultradamno:

Mark! Techtonimizers!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:00pm
chresti:

Hi Mark and Techtonians!
  6:00pm
Rolando:

Good morning friends as always I’m looking forward to the learning journey. Telemetry!! 😊
  6:01pm
Bea:

Good evening, Mark and fellow listeners!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:01pm
Bas NL:

Hi Mark! All!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:01pm
Webhamster Henry:

Hi there, Friends!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:02pm
tim:

Hey Mark! I saw and heard an ELECTRIC leaf blower today! Maybe there is hope!

Hey everyone!
  6:02pm
David in London:

Evening Mark and all Technoids.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:02pm
DjLorraine:

Hello!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:02pm
Deano de los Muertos:

hello everybody 👾
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:02pm
Webhamster Henry:

in re: "Fancy dataviz", Tufte calles it "Chartjunk"
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:04pm
Wendy del Formaggio:

Hey Mark! Ooh! I'm looking forward to this show. I've been thinking about the failures of the hyper-focus on optimization and efficiency. Let's just be humans! Fuck capitalism!
  6:05pm
Rolando:

Spring and the promise of Australian sunshine ☀️☀️
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:05pm
Ken From Hyde Park:

I think Vicki already did a whole week on Optimization — www.wfmu.org... Wait, what?
Avatar 🤖 6:06pm
herb.nyc:

Hola. Just finished a 7x7 Kenken (aka Ken Andy). Took me 25mins. I optimized it and am on time for techtonic!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:07pm
Webhamster Henry:

That's not what "slack" used to mean: www.subgenius.com...
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:07pm
swivs:

You say Slack? This a Bob party?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:08pm
swivs:

↳ Webhamster Henry @6:07
🥹
Avatar 🤖 6:08pm
herb.nyc:

Who has a pair of Haband slacks?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:08pm
StringOFperils:

Digital for the Pinks NOW!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:08pm
swivs:

Zippy the Clown likes Slacks
Avatar 6:09pm
nadalex:

I love Infinite Detail! Whats the date of the Maughn interview?
Avatar 🤖 6:09pm
herb.nyc:

Clogged Suez Canal? Get a colonoscopy! I did, Aug 9. I passed
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:09pm
Wendy del Formaggio:

Mark, did you just use the word "perturbation"? NICE! I looked it up, and now I know a new and very useful word.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:09pm
ultradamno:

I thought they were pants
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:09pm
tim:

In the analog world it feels like there’s no slack in the system either.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:09pm
Deano de los Muertos:

very interesting topic
  6:09pm
Dean:

Contingency planning is a species of optimization, since we will never control all the variables. In other words, if you really want to optimize something, you should provide for buffer.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:10pm
Handy Haversack:

Hello, Mark, Techyon Particles.
Avatar 6:10pm
nadalex:

Btw if anyone likes audio books, the audiobook for Infinite Detail is amazing. Available from your library on Libby app
Avatar 6:11pm
tom tom the pipers son:

lack of slack synonymous with lack of running room the adolf loos term in ornament and crime?
  Swag For Life Member 6:13pm
Bat_Ranch_Mike:

Wow!! Techtonic is doing a show which is in the vein of the Church if the Subgenius. The concept of Slack is central to the Church! You can check it out online.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:13pm
DjLorraine:

In the 70's my brothers hand me downs of i think Farah slacks had the best pockets.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:16pm
tim:

“or something” hahaha!
  6:17pm
Dean:

There was reverence for money, and there is no mystique about money.
Avatar 6:18pm
tom tom the pipers son:

↳ tom tom the pipers son @6:11
is there a historical analogy between art nouveau and total design and technology optimization?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:20pm
Mark Hurst:

↳ tim @6:02
I hope it was quieter than the usual pollution-belching model!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:20pm
-жеи:

Hi everybody
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:21pm
Juli:

Enjoying this:::...:::
Avatar 🤖 6:22pm
herb.nyc:

Poor farmers. Small ones are being bought out by corporations and the rich. Latter: Bill gates is a farmer. Yep (Yay, station manager here. ie, head farmer)
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:22pm
Ken From Hyde Park:

The farmland around my dear mother's place used to consist of wheat, barley, millet, flax, oats, rye and sunflowers. These days, it's almost all just corn and soybeans.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:22pm
tim:

↳ Mark Hurst @6:20
It was! Not exactly soothing but the noise pollution (and pollution pollution) was greatly improved!
Avatar 🤖 6:23pm
herb.nyc:

Mark mentions a beet farmer. NOT cool band the Beat Farmers
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:23pm
Mark Hurst:

↳ Ken From Hyde Park @6:05
Good point, @KfHP - lots of listening in Vicki's Optimized radio stream from 2016.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:23pm
Wendy del Formaggio:

Oh. I've been reading Wendell Berry's "The Unsettling of America" lately, and he was talking about these same themes in 1977.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:23pm
-жеи:

I love The Beat Pharmers
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:24pm
Wendy del Formaggio:

↳ herb.nyc @6:23
You read my mind, herb.nyc!
  Swag For Life Member 6:24pm
Bat_Ranch_Mike:

Beet farmer Bob ... last name Dobbs???
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:24pm
Mark Hurst:

↳ nadalex @6:09
Tim Maughan from Nov 11, 2019: www.wfmu.org...
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:24pm
DjLorraine:

I just watched the documentary "Kiss the Ground" about regenerative agriculture. No till and carbon capturing are highlighted. Woody Harrelson is the narrator.
Thanks Mark Hurst for this timely and important show.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:24pm
Handy Haversack:

↳ Ken From Hyde Park @6:22
Yup, that's the interstate system. Corn on one side of the road, soy on the other.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:24pm
Mark Hurst:

↳ Wendy del Formaggio @6:09
Twenty-five cent words here on Techtonic
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:25pm
tim:

↳ -жеи @6:23
Ha! I was hoping for a joke there!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:25pm
-жеи:

↳ herb.nyc @6:23
Herb you must be talking about the British Beat Farmers. I meant the American band Th Beat Pharmers
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:25pm
Juli:

She means make crops which you can spray w pesticides and grow more
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:25pm
Mark Hurst:

↳ Bat_Ranch_Mike @6:13
Bob will bring back the slack
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:25pm
Juli:

It's cancer.
  6:25pm
Jackie G:

↳ DjLorraine @6:24
Saw that. Seems like a no brainer.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:26pm
StringOFperils:

↳ Juli @6:25
True. These GMO crops are co-engineered with the chemistry they market
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:26pm
tim:

↳ Handy Haversack @6:24
You sure you’ve never been to Champaign IL?
Avatar 🤖 6:26pm
herb.nyc:

↳ -жеи @6:25
No. There’s a west coast (?) Beat F band. 1986,87?
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:27pm
Handy Haversack:

↳ tim @6:26
We are all Tim from Champaign!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:27pm
-жеи:

The Subgenius parallels to this show are impressive
Avatar 🤖 6:27pm
herb.nyc:

↳ -жеи @6:25
The Beat Farmers were an American rock band that formed in San Diego, California, United States, in August 1983, and enjoyed a cult following into the early 1990s before
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:27pm
Deano de los Muertos:

I’ve heard that the gmo crops can cross pollinate and invade your fields whether you want them or not
  6:28pm
Dean:

Bill Gates bought the farm?!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:28pm
StringOFperils:

↳ Deano de los Muertos @6:27
'Genetic drift'
Avatar 🤖 6:28pm
herb.nyc:

How about SEEDLESS fruits? If ya wanna grow them then you hafta buy seeds. Buy from mega corporations?
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:29pm
Will thee Sound Guy:

Hi Mark and all!!! been listening, just having a chance to chime in
  6:29pm
Fredericks:

↳ herb.nyc @6:27
I have their first record.
  6:29pm
Jackie G:

Really like the name Coco Krumme
  6:29pm
LiXiviated Life:

Hi ya crew
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:29pm
-жеи:

↳ herb.nyc @6:27
So many Beat Farmers. What can men do against such reckless hate?
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:30pm
DjLorraine:

↳ herb.nyc @6:28
Yes, the 1st time i saw this i knew it was not a good in the long run.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:30pm
StringOFperils:

↳ -жеи @6:29
They're too busy playing bongos to really accomplish much
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:30pm
Ken From Hyde Park:

↳ herb.nyc @6:27
Featuring Country Dick Montana, who died onstage during a performance. 😔
Avatar 🤖 6:30pm
herb.nyc:

↳ Fredericks @6:29
Maybe I saw them at Irving Plaza
Avatar 6:30pm
tom tom the pipers son:

strangulated beat farmers?
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:30pm
Handy Haversack:

Oh, wow, yeah. All the GTO solvers make poker a lot more boring.
  6:30pm
Dean:

The solution poetry getting boring? Strip poker!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:31pm
ultradamno:

Country Dick Montana would be a great name for a singer of a C&W band that does Dictators covers
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:32pm
Mark Hurst:

↳ Will thee Sound Guy @6:29
Good to see you, Will
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:32pm
Handy Haversack:

Fortunately I'm not good enough at poker to hang with the people who are memorizing the solvers, so at my level, the human element persists. Long live amateurism.
  6:32pm
LiXiviated Life:

Gregory Corso once told me
you can tell a Beat Farmer
by his fried shoes
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:32pm
tim:

Ken - do you feel the creeping sadness now that WFMU has achieved world domination?
  6:33pm
Dean:

But "solving" problems isn't the same as "optimizing" solutions. Being hell-bent on solving things is a good thing. But the first step is in understanding the problem we aim to solve.
  6:33pm
az dave:

The pandemic showed the cost of optimization in the hospital industry. The "slack" went into tents in the parking lots or died at home.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:34pm
Mark Hurst:

↳ herb.nyc @6:28
Exactly. This is essentially the agribusiness model advocated by Bill Gates - forcing farmers to submit entirely to the IP (intellectual property) of the megacorporations. Reminiscent of the early growth of Microsoft Windows.
  6:34pm
Fredericks:

This sure sounds like philosophy to me.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:34pm
Mark Hurst:

↳ az dave @6:33
Good point
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:34pm
Handy Haversack:

↳ LiXiviated Life @6:32
Heh. He and my dad were pals for a while.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:35pm
Webhamster Henry:

Yes, Optimization is with respect to the frames. That's why climate activists want the cost of carbon to be part of the equation.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:35pm
tim:

Joking aside, the optimization of everything is so prevalent in so many aspects of life. How many of you get the side eye or push back for not doing something rather than doing something?
Avatar 6:36pm
nadalex:

Great quotes on control there
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:37pm
Handy Haversack:

Proud Luddite here.
  6:37pm
Sensisio:

Thanks Mark! One of my favorite shows! A glimmer of hope in the future! : ) You Luddite!
  6:37pm
LiXiviated Life:

@ Handy Haversack
Weird
My dad and Allen Ginsberg went to high school together.
Silk City represent
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:37pm
tim:

Mark - You’re a Luddite!
Avatar 🤖 6:38pm
herb.nyc:

↳ Mark Hurst @6:34
Let me plug the Lower East Side Ecology Center. We make compost and potting soil that is free of chemicals or additives. Available at union square and Tompkins sq green markets
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:38pm
Mark Hurst:

↳ Handy Haversack @6:37
Same here, brother
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:38pm
Mark Hurst:

↳ Sensisio @6:37
Thanks, Sensisio
  6:38pm
Dean:

Her dissertation:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279815469_How_predictable_modeling_rates_of_change_in_individuals_and_populations
  6:38pm
Rolando:

It a real concern, my team are always bringing me better, faster, more efficient ways of improving tech for a school, but often the proposals and suggestions would remove students sense of worth and well-being. How So? You ask! Well firstly it puts the process and procedure before learning and discovering. I remind them that I don’t want “Mr Busyman” in my team, I want my team to have less to do do, not to be busy “optimising” endlessly.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:40pm
DjLorraine:

U.S. farm subsidies = 25 billion annually. And i think with mono crops with posionous pesticides.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:41pm
Mike Sin:

Right, for the Luddites, the machinery wasn’t the inherent problem. Just like the the current technology is not really the problem. The problem is this that hold the power to manipulate it.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:42pm
Mark Hurst:

↳ Mike Sin @6:41
Right! Well said, Mike
Avatar 🤖 6:42pm
herb.nyc:

The Mets optimized themselves for this present season. where’d it get them? (Sad face)
  6:42pm
Dean:

The only difference with the current technology worth remarking upon is the network effect. If you buy a hammer, I do not thereby have an incentive to buy a hammer. If you buy a smartphone, suddenly an incentive arises.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:42pm
StringOFperils:

It imposes an over-arching morality. What IS best? Why is an 'optimized' choice of approach to living in general, imposed from above, by something else, necessarily right for you? Outside of (ahem) common-sense law.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:43pm
-жеи:

Now if companies could only optimize customer service which continues to get worse and worse
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:43pm
Mark Hurst:

↳ Dean @6:42
Today is kinda like, you buy a hammer, and immediately the hammer attaches itself to your face and won't let go.
  6:43pm
Dean:

Customer service won't scale. Beats me!
Avatar 🤖 6:44pm
herb.nyc:

↳ Mark Hurst @6:43
Bad joke- In Russia, hammer hits you!
  6:45pm
Dean:

But you can personalize your smarthammer.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:45pm
Mark Hurst:

↳ -жеи @6:43
I agree... companies seem to be optimizing for short-term cost savings (shunting customers to AI chat bots) rather than employing humans who could actually help. Dave Mandl was talking about this on the May 1, 2023 show - www.wfmu.org...
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:45pm
chresti:

They're busy training AI to help customers.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:46pm
Handy Haversack:

↳ Mark Hurst @6:43
Couple of friends were looking kind of jealously at K8's Light Phone today.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:46pm
dale:

did we lose the guest? or is the feed to 90.1 down again (as it was this morning and that is directed to ken).
  6:46pm
Dean:

Speaking of AI, dig this story out of U Washington:
https://leiterreports.typepad.com/blog/2023/09/article-on-whether-us-legal-system-is-ready-for-the-challenge-of-ai-to-human-values-includes-citatio.html
Avatar 6:46pm
sensisio:

and the excellent quality of things today :|
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:46pm
Wendy del Formaggio:

↳ dale @6:46
I just had a drop-off in the stream, but it's back up now.
  6:46pm
Sufferwords:

need to restart on app
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:47pm
Handy Haversack:

↳ Wendy del Formaggio @6:46
Same.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:47pm
Deano de los Muertos:

same, great interview though
  6:47pm
David in London:

By coincidence, I’ve just seen Dave Mandl’s band, Time Trout, play this evening.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:48pm
chresti:

↳ David in London @6:47
Cool!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:48pm
Webhamster Henry:

↳ David in London @6:47
Cafe OTO is a happening venue!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:48pm
tim:

Great interview, Mark! I will definitely read Coco’s book!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:48pm
dale:

↳ Wendy del Formaggio @6:46
not the stream - mt. hope radio broadcast. may be connected but it's still down.
  6:49pm
Dean:

No, the stream was cutting out, too.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:49pm
Handy Haversack:

↳ David in London @6:47
Nice!
  6:49pm
David in London:

Chrestikins!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:49pm
tim:

↳ David in London @6:47
Time Trout is right!
  6:49pm
Rolando:

What I like most about Coco is her embrace of the “slack ideals”, the best way I can describe how much I identify with this theme, is words like “lazy Sundays”, and closing shop at 1pm on Saturday, (yeah I remember those days), There is nothing better than purposefully wasting time, I like to leave room in any task for a bit of slack. My Dad always said, there is something wrong in you life if you have run for anything, - being late or rushing past someone is a symptom of being unwell, IOW if you have to run you should re-evaluate what you are doing - The lost art for doing nothing, - this is why I like the beach and ocean so much.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:50pm
chresti:

Oh boy homework!
  6:50pm
Sufferwords:

look what optimizing media has wrought- art and literature have become too easy to access- the overload devalues the quality
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:50pm
Deano de los Muertos:

↳ David in London @6:47
🤘
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:50pm
Will thee Sound Guy:

↳ dale @6:48
does Staysh know? he was on the chat a little while ago
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:51pm
chresti:

Davidkins!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:51pm
dale:

↳ Will thee Sound Guy @6:50
i just mentioned it here to him. haven't sent an email. assume he was reading.
  6:52pm
Dean:

Along these lines, there's the worn adage, "The perfect is the enemy of the good." I take the point, but the perfect is also the enemy of the bad.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:52pm
Ken From Hyde Park:

On Labor Day, we can remember Henry Ford optimizing Model T automobile production a century ago.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:52pm
chresti:

↳ Rolando @6:49
Here, here!
  6:53pm
Dean:

Yep, Fordism, Taylorism.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:54pm
PaulRobeson1923:

What is an education for?!
  6:54pm
ncxkd:

Which FMU show would be most likely to play vaporwave?
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:54pm
-жеи:

Dale, is 90.1fm silent now? I also lost one of the streams back there but got onto the stereo MP3 one
  6:55pm
Dean:

Notice how optimization subscribes totally to "The perfect is the enemy of the good." Good enough is good enough. Make more at lower costs, then sell more at higher prices. Optimal!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:55pm
tim:

I bet 3 experienced bus driver could have looked a district map and
  6:55pm
Jackie G:

↳ Rolando @6:49
WFMU is my favorite waste of time
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:55pm
Ken From Hyde Park:

But I'll bet the bus route map made a really neat picture.
  6:56pm
Dean:

Damn, I miss Thomas Bros. map guides.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:56pm
Handy Haversack:

Thanks, Mark!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:56pm
tim:

↳ tim @6:55
Very efficiently create an efficient bus route.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:56pm
Deano de los Muertos:

he’s fired up! Thanks Mark!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:57pm
Bas NL:

Thanks Mark! Thanks Coco!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:57pm
tim:

Thanks, Mark!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm
dale:

↳ -жеи @6:54
yes - still dead.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:57pm
Deano de los Muertos:

Mushroom mushroom!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:58pm
Deano de los Muertos:

🦡🦡🦡🍄🍄🐍🐍
  6:58pm
matt:

take off, eh
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:58pm
ultradamno:

Is it legal to resist the unlistenable on WFMU?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:58pm
chresti:

Thanks Mark and Coco!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:58pm
dale:

i hear a faint hiss so it's the feed, not the tower.
  6:59pm
Jackie G:

Badger was the shortstop on my little league team. Forget his first name. Everyone just called him Badger
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:59pm
Mark Hurst:

Thanks, everyone!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 7:01pm
Will thee Sound Guy:

thank you Mark Hurst!
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