Favoriting Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from October 30, 2023 Favoriting

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Conversations with creators and thinkers who are charting the way forward in a tech-saturated society. In our shift to a digital future, we need alternatives to Big Tech. Homepage: techtonic.fm

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Favoriting October 30, 2023: Facial recognition w/Kashmir Hill, author, "Your Face Belongs to Us"

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Today: Discussing facial recognition with Kashmir Hill, author, “Your Face Belongs to Us”

Your Face Belongs to Us: A Secretive Startup’s Quest to End Privacy as We Know It, by Kashmir Hill, published by Random House

• Kashmir Hill is a tech reporter at the New York Times.

Clearview AI, the company featured in Hill’s book

Your Face May Soon Be Your Ticket. Not Everyone Is Smiling (NYT, Oct 13, 2023): “Facial recognition software is speeding up check-in at airports, cruise ships and theme parks, but experts worry about risks to security and privacy.”

Reflectacles, eyewear that is “designed to fool facial recognition systems that use infrared for illumination and systems using 3D infrared mapping/scanning.”

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Artist Track Images Approx. start time
  Facial recognition w/Kashmir Hill, author, "Your Face Belongs to Us"
Game Boy Tune  Tomaš Dvořák   Favoriting
Favoriting
 
  Mark's intro  
Favoriting
 
  Interview with Kashmir Hill  
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0:03:28 (MP3 | Pop-up)
  Mark's comments  
Favoriting
0:45:45 (MP3 | Pop-up)
Zero Wing  All Your Base Are Belong To Us   Favoriting
Favoriting
0:55:05 (MP3 | Pop-up)


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Listener comments!

Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:00pm
ultradamno:

Mark! Techtonkies!
  6:00pm
Bea:

Good evening, Mark!
  6:01pm
Lieutenant Lambrusco:

Love this theme music - hey all
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:01pm
DanFA:

Hello Mark Hearse. I've been looking forward to someday hearing Kashmir Hill on this program. One of my favorite tech journalists to follow.
  6:01pm
chresti:

Hi Mark and techtoniacs !
  6:01pm
Rolando:

Greetings my friends, I’m walking to work, listening to the show
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:03pm
DanFA:

Dan "The Man" Bodah
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:04pm
Tech Bro Tim:

Alright all you pencilnecks. I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT. I am no longer a big tech skeptic, a privacy worrier and a social media avoider. I get sick of being a thousandaire! I’M TECH BRO NOW, YOU WEENIES! Screw your privacy mwah hah hah! I got crypto up the ying yang now! Mwah - hah - hah! Join my new social media platform #imnotaloseranymore.com bwah-hah-hah!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:05pm
DanFA:

↳ Tech Bro Tim @6:04
This your Halloween costume?
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:06pm
Tech Bro Tim:

↳ DanFA @6:05
It’s my new look. I had my AI minion order from Amazon. I got it delivered in 3 minutes!
Avatar 🤖 6:07pm
MarciB:

This book was terrifying (but really well done)
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:07pm
Wendy del Formaggio:

Hello Mark and friends! Very psyched about this interview. What a bunch of creepy shit, right in time for the holiday.
  6:07pm
Rolando:

Welcome to the team Tech bro Tim, Mark our fearless leader will help us all stay on the straight and narrow path that leads to freedom
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:08pm
Mark Hurst:

@ultra @Bea @Lambrusco @DanFA @chresti @Rolando @TechBroTim @Marci @Wendy thanks to all of you for being here!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:09pm
Wendy del Formaggio:

Ooh! I'm glad we're talking about Venmo. It's always made me really uneasy but I've not done the research to articulate why.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:09pm
DanFA:

My local Girl Scouts chapter was selling cookies using venmo.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:09pm
ultradamno:

Isn't that how Matt Gaetz got found out?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:10pm
Mark Hurst:

↳ Tech Bro Tim @6:06
dude, Tim, yer lookin' awwwesome
  6:10pm
P-90:

Hi Mark!
And: regular Techtonic listeners may want to check out Cory Doctorow’s latest (brand new!) piece about the “enshitification” of Facebook and what Zuck (and other digital oligarchs) are really up to. Connects directly to so much we’ve heard on the show.

https://pluralistic.net/2023/10/30/markets-remaining-irrational/#steins-law
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:10pm
Mark Hurst:

↳ Wendy del Formaggio @6:09
Yep Venmo was publishing everyone's transaction data publicly - because of course it did - until the company got enough bad PR that they edged away from it.
Avatar 🤖 6:12pm
MarciB:

↳ P-90 @6:10
Thanks P-90!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:12pm
mndave:

Speaking of faces, the CV AI founder has one, and I have two fists, and
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:12pm
dale:

saw a microsoft start homepage article about best cosplay costumes. clicked on it and there was a friend and the photo was from her facebook page. she had no idea. but we should ALL know we don't own our images.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:12pm
tim:

Damn! This interview has already back to earth. I sucked as a tech bro.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:12pm
Mark Hurst:

↳ P-90 @6:10
Good pointer, P-90, thanks. Listeners might also like to hear Cory's most recent Techtonic interview, from March - in which we talk about (what I have to call for FCC reasons) "enfecalization": www.wfmu.org...
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:13pm
Bas NL:

Hi Mark! All!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:14pm
chris in the redwoods:

isn't scraping what search engines do?
hi, Mark and everyone!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:14pm
Mark Hurst:

Hi Bas! Welcome.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:15pm
Mark Hurst:

↳ chris in the redwoods @6:14
That's a good point - search engines all have scrapers (or "webcrawlers," the more polite term) - historically mostly focused on text. One difference here is that it's not just text content of HTML pages but people's biometrics (faces) taken from their personal photos (say on Instagram or wherever) that they might have expected to be mostly private.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:16pm
chris in the redwoods:

↳ Mark Hurst @6:15
gotcha. thanks, Mark.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:16pm
mndave:

↳ Mark Hurst @6:15
And your previous episode on CV AI educated me on how *wrong* they are, particularly with POC.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:18pm
mndave:

↳ mndave @6:16
Or maybe that was lexis-nexis and the other data brokers. It's tough to keep tabs on evil.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:21pm
Mark Hurst:

↳ mndave @6:18
Yep - lots of cross-pollination of bad ideas across the tech industry.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:23pm
DanFA:

I'm more concerned about corporations tracking me than the government.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:26pm
Ciggy:

1). Hoan Ton-That says, what he’s evolved into around facial recognition technology, is that what the company is selling — this power for police officers to identify criminal suspects, to solve crimes — is the best possible use of facial recognition technology. That they are making the world safer, more secure. It’s being used to rescue children.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:27pm
Ciggy:

2). Clearview definitely pushes that onus to police departments in saying, “We’re just providing the technology for them to use. They should never arrest somebody based on a Clearview match alone and that they need to do more investigating.” I think, for us as a society, there’s just a lot to evaluate here. I’ve talked to a lot of officers who, yeah, they’ve solved crimes with Clearview AI as a starting point. And horrific things — abuse of children.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:27pm
Ciggy:

3). “Everyone in America is going to have the Clearview AI app on their phone. The moms of America are going to use this to protect their children.” And he thought he was going to make a ton of money off of Clearview AI. He said, “It’s going to be the new Google. The way you talk about Googling someone, you’re going to talk about Clearviewing their face.”
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:28pm
Ciggy:

Always based on children
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:28pm
tim:

Man, this is a bummer but I really appreciate Kashmir’s research and dedication to the subject.
  6:29pm
Saltonstall:

I live in Chicago. BIPA has paid my spouse well over $2000…

That said, I’d prefer it was zero… the money is nice, but her image is already out there.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:30pm
Mark Hurst:

↳ Saltonstall @6:29
Interesting! I wasn't aware there were cash payments involved as well.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:35pm
Ciggy:

Is Clearview Ai related to Clear?
"We’re an identity company that makes experiences safer and easier wherever you live, work, and travel."
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:36pm
Jeff Golick:

Thanks for this, Mark. I find that the size of these data pools -- the extent of the information gathered -- is really hard to comprehend.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:36pm
tim:

I’m probably phrasing this incorrectly but has the been any academic consensus about ethics being taught in computer engineering or information technology curriculums?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:36pm
Mark Hurst:

↳ Ciggy @6:35
Clear is different from Clearview AI. Both surveillance-related, both claiming to keep people safe, but different companies.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:37pm
Mark Hurst:

↳ Jeff Golick @6:36
Exactly. If people understood what it means that Clearview has scraped 30 *billion* identifying photos, people would be a lot more freaked out / outraged.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:38pm
Mark Hurst:

↳ tim @6:36
A few CS curricula are starting to add in a required ethics course... not sure how that's going to make Silicon Valley, in its current form, any less unethical..
  6:39pm
Rolando:

No !!! The argument that it makes us safer is not a valid argument and that’s how all these things slip in. Just No !!!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:40pm
DanFA:

No boss, I swear I wasn't buying spam at 3 in the morning.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:41pm
DanFA:

Oh dear
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:42pm
tim:

↳ Mark Hurst @6:38
Sure. I have no doubt it wouldn’t make a difference in Silicon Valley. This is a huge generalization but it seems that ethics is a foreign concept in this line of work.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:44pm
ultradamno:

...or are a juror in a case involving someone who would like to apply pressure against you
Avatar 🤖 6:44pm
MarciB:

No privacy for you or you or you!
  6:45pm
chresti:

I’m going to start wearing clown makeup in public
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:46pm
Wendy del Formaggio:

↳ DanFA @6:23
@DanFA: I mostly agree, except being a Jew, I don't have to look back very far to see why the government tracking me is also extremely dangerous. I have the privilege NOW of appearing white and middle-class and "adequately" female-presenting. But, that may not always be true, or keep me safe.
It's worse for POC, trans folks, Muslims, etc.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:47pm
Wendy del Formaggio:

↳ chresti @6:45
O M G yes please. We should all start doing that. Public clown makeup: it's not just for Juggalos anymore!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:48pm
ultradamno:

They Follow, the sequel to It Follows, was announced today, probably won't be scarier than this...
Avatar 🤖 6:48pm
MarciB:

I wish facial rec was limited to genealogy and archival research only. Alas...
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:49pm
DanFA:

↳ Wendy del Formaggio @6:46
Yes, excellent point. I'm not comfortable with either tracking anyone, though corporations at this point seem to be more pernicious than government. And some corporations have basically bought the government as in the case with Elon Musk as evident in Ronan Farrow's latest piece.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:49pm
Wendy del Formaggio:

I totally want to read this and will request it from the library. I'll also brace myself.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:49pm
DanFA:

↳ Wendy del Formaggio @6:47
Why so serious?
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:49pm
Wendy del Formaggio:

↳ DanFA @6:49
True.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:50pm
tim:

Great interview, Mark! Another book I’m going to make a purchase request at the library if it already in.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:50pm
Wendy del Formaggio:

↳ DanFA @6:49
About what? Public clown makeup?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:50pm
DanFA:

↳ Wendy del Formaggio @6:50
Yes. It's a line by the Joker in Dark Knight. Not a good movie.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:51pm
tim:

In kind of heartening news, when I went to request Blood In The Machine from the library, both copies were checked out and there was a small queue for it!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:51pm
Wendy del Formaggio:

↳ DanFA @6:50
Oh! I'm sorry. Your reference went way over my head.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:51pm
DanFA:

This is why I don't leave my house.
Avatar 🤖 6:51pm
MarciB:

I just took a privacy certification course thru the industry group I belong to. I was pretty well-versed in some of the horrors shared (thanks to this show). My colleagues were totally shocked.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:51pm
DanFA:

↳ Wendy del Formaggio @6:51
No biggie.
  6:51pm
P-90:

Oh, she’s “Kash” for short, that’s cool
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:53pm
DanFA:

Time to call my congressmembers.
Avatar 🤖 6:53pm
MarciB:

My teacher shared that she spends every New Years Day going thru online data brokers and requesting her info to be removed. This lasts for only a year, unfortunately.
  6:53pm
P-90:

We want that whole rant next week, keep it warm for us
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:54pm
Webhamster Henry:

Yeep! This looks like another for the Techtonic library!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:55pm
Wendy del Formaggio:

↳ tim @6:51
Please tell me more about Blood in the Machine. I was cooking and missed something...
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:55pm
DanFA:

Make sure to like and subscribe, hit the bell as well.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:56pm
maurer:

Preach!!!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:56pm
Wendy del Formaggio:

↳ Webhamster Henry @6:54
I just requested it from my public library. They'll probably buy it because they usually do when I request things, esp new things. :-)
  6:56pm
chresti:

Yes can’t wait for the rant!

Thanks Mark and Kash!
Avatar 🤖 6:56pm
MarciB:

↳ Wendy del Formaggio @6:55
Jumping in here :) I just got it from my library - so far it's great and Mark's interview was illuminating
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:56pm
tim:

↳ Wendy del Formaggio @6:55
It’s a book featured two episodes ago that explores Ludditism wfmu.org...
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:57pm
Webhamster Henry:

If you buy Techtonic featured books, you can Avoid Amazon™ with bookshop.org
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:57pm
tim:

↳ tim @6:56
It’s a great interview too!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm
DanFA:

↳ Wendy del Formaggio @6:56
Public library: "god, Wendy is requesting another tech dystopian book."
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:57pm
Wendy del Formaggio:

↳ tim @6:56
Oh right! That was a great episode. Requesting it now...
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm
JohnEBGood:

Go go go! Thanks Mark : )
  6:57pm
Allen:

Mark I really appreciate you and this show as much as it scares the living crap out of me every week
  6:57pm
morphe':

Thanks MH -> A Peoples's world or an electronic Gulag ????
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:57pm
Wendy del Formaggio:

↳ DanFA @6:57
No, they love it! :-D
We ARE talking about librarians, you know.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:58pm
Webhamster Henry:

Your Face Is Belong To Us!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:58pm
tim:

Thanks, Mark! Keep on and keep going!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:58pm
Wendy del Formaggio:

Lots of love for Mark Hurst!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:58pm
Bas NL:

Thanks Mark! Thanks Kashmir!
  6:58pm
morphe':

ps Pledge $100.00 for 3 Tshirts or
  6:58pm
P-90:

“faceprints” sounds like a term from a dystopian science fiction book
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:59pm
chris in the redwoods:

thanks, Mark. great interview! holy moly.
  6:59pm
Bea:

Great interview, Mark!
Avatar 🤖 6:59pm
MarciB:

How much do we have to pledge to get a pumpkin, radio etc ?
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:59pm
tim:

↳ MarciB @6:59
Any amount large or small!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 7:00pm
Wendy del Formaggio:

↳ MarciB @6:59
MarciB, pledge now and you'll get a pumpkin. Pledge as a swag-for-lifer and you'll get a radio, too.
  7:00pm
Rolando:

I’m struggling to see a way out of this mess,
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:00pm
chris in the redwoods:

↳ MarciB @6:59
anything gets a pumpkin. radio is for Swag for Life pledge. anything now or selected to Mark gets you the robot.
Avatar 🤖 7:00pm
MarciB:

Hmm, I pledged but no badges ;(
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 7:00pm
Wendy del Formaggio:

↳ MarciB @7:00
If you JUST pledged, it might take a few minutes.
Avatar 🤖 7:01pm
MarciB:

Thanks all and thanks Mark!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:01pm
chris in the redwoods:

↳ MarciB @7:00
may take a minute :) you're awesome!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 7:02pm
tim:

↳ MarciB @7:00
Marci, if it doesn’t show soon, email Joe McGasko. My pumpkin hasn’t shown up yet either. I’ve been forgetting to email.
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