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Options July 19, 2021: Jon Fasman, author, "We See It All"

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Tonight: Jon Fasman, author, We See It All: Liberty and Justice in an Age of Perpetual Surveillance


• @jonfasman (Twitter)

We See It All: Liberty and Justice in an Age of Perpetual Surveillance (IndieBound)

New York Times coverage of Pegasus, cyberespionage tool made by NSO Group, Israeli spyware company (July 18, 2021): "Activists say that without access to surveillance-free communications, journalists will no longer be able to contact sources without fear of exposing them to government retaliation. And rights campaigners will be unable to freely communicate with victims of state-led abuses. ... [A list was leaked of] more than 50,000 mobile numbers from more than 50 countries that it said appeared to be proposed surveillance targets for the company’s clients. ... the list [reportedly] contained the numbers of hundreds of journalists, media proprietors, government leaders, opposition politicians, political dissidents, academics and rights campaigners. The list was first obtained by Amnesty International, the human rights watchdog, and Forbidden Stories, a group that focuses on free speech."

Congress Asks Experts for Guidance on Facial Recognition (July 14, 2021), on Robert Williams' testimony to the congressional hearing on facial recognition

Federal agencies using facial recognition, as reported by the GAO

Stores with facial recognition include Albertsons, Macy's, Ace Hardware, and Apple Stores - and possibly others, such as McDonald's, Best Buy, Starbucks, and Walgreens.

Jack Paulson, past guest, on Clearview AI's partners

Cameras and usage policies in Shenzhen, China

• EFF's Matthew Guariglia, June 17: "Here is [Amazon] Ring sending free cameras to the LAPD for use in an investigation involving a church - and making it a marketing opportunity asking if church members could be informed about the cameras."

• On ankle bracelets: A grandmother didn’t answer her phone during a class. She was sent back to prison. (Washington Post, June 26, 2021)

• Speaking of last week's show on the "fauxliage" of fake-tree cell towers... this comes from a Techtonic listener in Arizona:

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Artist Track Album Images Approx. start time
  Jon Fasman, author, "We See It All: Liberty and Justice in an Age of Perpetual Surveillance"
Tomaš Dvořák  Game Boy Tune   Options Machinarium Soundtrack 
  Mark's intro    
  Interview with Jon Fasman    
0:02:40 (MP3 | Pop‑up)
  Mark's comments    
0:37:42 (MP3 | Pop‑up)
Schneider TM  iBot (With A Soul)   Options The 8 Of Space 
0:55:12 (MP3 | Pop‑up)

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Listener comments!

  6:00pm David in London:

Evening Mark and all Technoids.
  6:00pm Robm:

Hello fellow techies
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:01pm ultradamno:

Mark! Techtonlookers!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:01pm listener james from westwood:

Evening, Mark and all!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:01pm Handy Haversack:

Hey, Mark, David, everyone.
  6:01pm ShelbyG:

Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:01pm DjLorraine:

I've got the headphones on
Avatar 6:01pm Bas NL:

Hi Mark! Techtonicistas!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:02pm HyperDose:

I always feel like somebody's watching me 👀
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:04pm common:

Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:04pm chresti:

Hi Mark and techtrons!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:04pm PaulRobeson1920:

Hi Mark! Hi Hi Hi all!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:04pm Webhamster Henry:

Hi, surveilled ones! I SEE YOU!
Avatar 6:05pm Bas NL:

And, oh boy, there will be saucy comments tonight.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:06pm Mark Hurst:

Hi DiL, Robm, ultra, james, Handy, Shelby, Lorraine, Bas, Hyper, common, chresti, & webham! Glad you're with me this evening.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:09pm melinda:

hi everyone
  6:11pm Roland from Australia:

Cycling to work listening to the show.
Avatar 6:12pm Bas NL:

We just had a car chase in The Netherlands, where the car was found in no time by number plate recognition. It was stated there are 1500 recognition points; in our small country.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:12pm PaulRobeson1920:

2017 in New York City

7 out of 8 people jailed for Drug Policy Violations are Black people.

The wealthy use illegal drugs with impunity.
The Weekend (the performer) is a symbol of our sick society…
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:13pm Webhamster Henry:

Obligatory Minority Report reference.
Avatar 6:14pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63:

i.e. : They didn't know sh*t in Shinola...
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:14pm Mark Hurst:

Sorry for my error: Mr. Williams' first name is Robert, not Roger.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:15pm Webhamster Henry:

Of course, defunding this part of the police first might help.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:15pm Mark Hurst:

@RevRabbit heh.. though to state the obvious, it wasn't Shinola's fault - it was the police who misused the photo. (Coincidentally, Shinola comes up in David Sax's book we covered awhile back)
  6:15pm ShelbyG:

@Paul: drug de-regulation- Portugal 🇵🇹
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:17pm Greg from ZONE 5:

Evening all! I have been here for 3 minutes and am already terrified.
  6:17pm David in London:

I just don’t buy their explanation. I emailed Mark a few weeks ago with a relatively benign, but illustrative, example. WFMU has an AI DJ called Rock & Soul Bunny, to whose show I listen. I requested a track by the 60s British Freakbeat Titans, the Wimple Winch, a track which I know is in his available song bank. Instead, however, his algorithm somehow got stuck on the initials WW, and he played me a song called For the Lady by Little Wilbur Whitfield and the Pleasers. And boy, that algorithm is now well and truly stuck. WHATEVER I request now, The Stones, The Seeds, The 13th Floor Elevators, he only plays me...For the Lady by a Little Wilbur Whitfield. That’s an amusingly trivial example, but imagine if the same thing happened in an unseen but highly significant field of life such as criminal justice or healthcare?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:17pm PaulRobeson1920:

We need policy that promotes the common good… tech would follow?
Avatar 6:17pm Bas NL:

I'd love to have that app.. i'm terrible at remembering names.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:17pm Mark Hurst:

@Greg welcome!
  6:19pm ShelbyG:

I have to get biometrics done to emigrate to UK. I know Clearview handles this kind of stuff, right? Will my biometrics be up for trade??
  6:19pm The Butterman:

Police license plate reading was able to tell my dad where he left his car when he couldn’t find it in the city. He thought it was towed or stolen. Turns out he just couldn’t find it. All those upper west side streets look the same and those pesky numbered streets make it confusing. Poor fool had to take the train back to jersey.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:20pm ultradamno:

But didn't you REALLY want Little Wilbur Whitfield and the Pleasers and didn't know it yourself until the insightful algorithm revealed it to you?
  6:21pm Bigfoot:

Uh, all encompassing surveillance state built by various intel agencies and companies...in the USA. Comparison to China is utterly misguided.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:24pm PaulRobeson1920:

Whats in your body? Boy? “What are you on?”
Nixon era public policy has resulted in the massive police state today… i’m wondering, how would you define a police state?Anybody

Democracy was invented by a HIGHLY literate society… so what kind of society are we living in today….
Freedom of expression! thank goodness!!!!!
  6:24pm ShelbyG:

Really great interview so far!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:25pm Mark Hurst:

@Shelby thanks!
  6:26pm ?:

Take the skinheads bowling

Take them bowling

Problem solved
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:26pm Handy Haversack:

I can't agree with John's thoughts on the police. Police depts. ultimately exist only to perpetuate the power of police depts., and it does not matter what the intentions of individual officers were when they joined that power structure.

Police make the market that incentivises the development of far-over-reaching surveillance tech. Reforming the police has never, ever worked. Only a complete reevaluation of what crime is and how we can actually reach justice might effect change. As long as the structures of police depts. are allowed to persist, the problem does not go away.
  6:27pm ?:

Unplugging can be casual
Avatar 6:27pm Bas NL:

Evading facial recognition... mmm... suspect.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:28pm Webhamster Henry:

We're trying to convince our local police to not buy a Tank.
Avatar 6:28pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63:

Handy I'm afraid so. There's *one* Union in the USA that - somehow - never gets busted or defamed as dirty Commies...
  Swag For Life Member 6:29pm drew:

Faces are public information. So are gaits. Public information cannot be contained.
  6:29pm ?:

Facial recognition depending upon location

That cat is way outta the bag by now

London ring

But UAE, Emirates, Israel China

  Swag For Life Member 6:29pm drew:

Credit card numbers are private information.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:29pm ultradamno:

Does the computer rank your gait from "loser stumble" to "dead stroll"?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:30pm joe mulligan:

i've heard casinos have been using gait recognition for a few decades
  Swag For Life Member 6:30pm drew:

ultrademo, that's leg-ist!
  6:31pm ShelbyG:

@Handy: I agree
“Defund the Police” is so stigmatized. Just don’t rely on cops to handle the shit they aren’t trained to deal with. Pay to mental health counselors, drug counselors, etc.
  6:32pm Bigfoot:

Fasman is undoubtedly referring to "research" done by Adrian Zenz to support his assertions about what is going on in Xinjiang. Zenz is a very far right wing figure attached to the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, which is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy, a CIA front group. His research has been thoroughly debunked by numerous journalists and organizations critical of this sort of bogus propaganda.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:33pm Handy Haversack:

I think that public-private distinction is what needs to be examined here. Sure, my face is public. So what? What we are talking about is the USE it is put to and who gets to decide what is allowed. The public-private divide as it stands always and only serves capital and entrenched power. Why is it so strange to suggest that if they want to use *the image of my face captured without my consent*, I should be the one who opts in to any uses anyone wants to make. How is it not, otherwise, unreasonable search and seizure.

Public vs. private as it stands is the argument that will only ever benefit those who want to arrogate all power to themselves.
  6:33pm ?:

In Brooklyn

Every year the local police collected every high school yearbook

And NYPD ain’t all that good at anything but they got that down

Don’t be paranoid

They got you already

Thing is

What do they care to use for what purpose?

Y’all gotta be hardcore messenger of change to get noticed

And those types die early

Jimmy Hendrix was murdered once he mentioned the Panthers
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:34pm Mark Hurst:

@Bigfoot the Xinjiang reference was my own: please see the wealth of links I provided to listeners on the playlist from June 7: www.wfmu.org... ... dismissing the complaints from Xinjiang as "right wing" or whatever is naive at best.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:34pm DjLorraine:

Joe Mulligan really? Part of me is like..of course
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:36pm PaulRobeson1920:

A state in which the Police are paid more than the teachers…

“ I can’t feel my face” song performed at Halftime of the Superbowl was one of the grossest things i’ve ever seen.
  6:37pm Old Dave:

For some years now, my crossing the Canadian border back and forth to my hobby farm has had all kinds of camera documentation.
Both sides seem to now recognize me and the family according to our previous encounters. This speeds up the process.

I am not hiding a crime, and would like to continue travelling freely after August 9th.
Maybe if someone pretending to be me tries to cross in September, their records will flag the hell out of his ass?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:37pm DjLorraine:

Yes. I answered my own question
  6:38pm David in London:

Handy, broadly speaking, at least here in the U.K., if you film people for a fictional film, you have to get their written consent for use of their image. Yet not for facial recognition. Something of a contradiction there.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:38pm PaulRobeson1920:


Privacy what is IT good for! Absolutly nothin!
Avatar 6:39pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63:

Handy yes: The conclusion I came to some time ago with this Program (& some other things) :
We need a Bill of Digital Rights - as we *already* live in Cyberland...
As for Police - all this A.I. will follow the pattern of exactly what happened in Militarizing the Police. As they say: You keep your Military & your Police *separate* - because one Fights Enemies - & the other Protects Citizens...
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:39pm Mark Hurst:

@DiL the book has a nice mini-case about the thousands of CCTVs throughout London
  6:39pm ?:

Libertarian right


Y’all back trump ffs
  6:39pm David in London:

Mark, I’ll be buying a copy tomorrow.
  6:40pm ?:

And the further right the deeper the trumpism

Careful about your allies people
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:40pm DjLorraine:

Good point
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:40pm Handy Haversack:

David, pay with cash!
Avatar 6:40pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63:

...so - combining the Police & the Intelligence Agencies ...not new in itself...just add SuperTech... Quantum Computing is gonna be a gas...can't wait...
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:40pm PaulRobeson1920:

93,000 Americans Died from Accidental Overdose last year.
Of the 2,000,000 souls in Jail’ in America right now. A FULL HALF have a definable and treatable mental illness!!! And of that population, 60% have used illegal drugs the previous month to incarceration!
Mental illness
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:41pm PaulRobeson1920:

Over 8,000,000 souls under probation supervision in America now
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:42pm Webhamster Henry:

The thing with "There oughta be a law" is that an international jurisdiction is needed to cover the abuses of these multinationals. Also: our tech companies are better funded and work faster than legislatures and their enforcing infrastructure.
  6:42pm Bigfoot:

Ah yes at least he pointed out that The Economist is libertarian right. The Stop LAPD Spying Coalition goes far beyond this guy in terms of depth of analysis and actually doing something about it. The China citations are unfortunate, Zenz is a fraud. https://thegrayzone.com/?s=zenz
Avatar 6:43pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63:

Libertarianism too often & too much a way to sell the Far Right to people. Deregulate many things - often just means the Richest of the Rich get to do whatever they can afford & screw everybody & everything else.
We have Rights as Humans - not just the Computers & the Corporations.
  6:43pm Roland from Australia:

Been reading the New Yorker for the past 4 months, i’ve gotta say it’s a little bit too far to the left for me personally, I do like some of it articles do it’s tricky, I may look deeper into the Economist, I’m gonna finish my 12 months paper subscription to the New Yorker and then reconsider.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:44pm HyperDose:

What a hot button issue! 🔥🚨 Brilliant minds challenging each other in the freeform arena 🧠⚔️ Great stuff, Mark!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:44pm Ken From Hyde Park:

Hi, Mark and surveilled citizens. Keep Bezos in space: www.change.org...
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:45pm chresti:

I see plastic surgery and masks becoming a growth industry.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:46pm ultradamno:

Well, they still use polygraphs without question so haphazard use of facial recognition is likely already inextricable. If it results in a win for them.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:46pm Webhamster Henry:

Tattoo the 4th amendment on your forehead.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:46pm Carmichael:

Halloween every day!
Avatar 6:48pm Bas NL:

We already had the reflective glasses on the show.. time to get some.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:48pm melinda:

@? political allies are necessary to get anything done, they don't have to be your friends
Avatar 6:48pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63:

Grrr. The misappropriation of the Tolkien word 'Palantir'. Bastards. I remind you that in the Professor's fiction - the Palantiri were problematic...
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:49pm Ken From Hyde Park:

New York state introduced gold plates with blue lettering only a few years ago and already are replacing them with white plates with dark lettering. Because the new ones are easier for the cameras to read.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:49pm Handy Haversack:

I heard a total douchebag admit to working for Palantir at the bar where Kate played the other night. I hope the woman he was hitting on walked the hell away.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:51pm HyperDose:

What? Do my dollar menu nuggets come bugged?
  6:51pm Old Dave:

Our township police shocked me 5 years ago by ALPR instant results from a car found in our driveway. They knew its owners details and where it had been the last 3 days.
Yes, they see it all...
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:51pm Handy Haversack:

Thanks for the interview and other thoughts today, Mark. Always useful info here, always tools provided to try to change what needs to be changed.
  6:51pm Wormy:

I was only in Kmart for chewing gum, I normally go to better stores.
  6:51pm JJ NY-SC:

What were those glasses again that keep your face from being recognized?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:51pm PaulRobeson1920:

Fueled by the 1970 Controlled Substance act! Prohibition has results in larger weapons! Buy Tanks for the Drug War!

Well over 400,000 felons Arrested for Drug Policy violations in Florida cannot vote ever again!

Often what we value is not made explicit. Make your values explcit!

“the juridicial discourse brings to life that which is pronounces”

What is actionable to prevent facial recognition??? What could of been done to prevent the Smart Phone??

End the war…
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:51pm ultradamno:

Do Apple do that just so the clerks can walk up to you, call you by your name and SS# and recommend other titles by the last artist you purchased an album of?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:52pm PaulRobeson1920:

Which it*

Hey now
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:53pm ultradamno:

See you in two weeks.
Avatar 6:53pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63:

As if ever-present CCTV wasn't *already* part & parcel with benches you can't sit on more than a half an hour or sprinklers that keep you off lawns... The Anti-Human Architecture of our Society...
Avatar 6:53pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63:

  6:54pm David in London:

Ultradamno, they’ll recommend Little Wilbur Whitfield & The Pleasers to me...
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:54pm RevErie:

thanks mark!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:54pm Handy Haversack:

@JJ NY-SC: www.reflectacles.com
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:54pm ultradamno:

I understand you're their biggest fan.
  6:55pm David in London:

Thanks Mark.
Good night everyone.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:55pm ultradamno:

Are we sure it's not a cucumber?
Avatar 6:56pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63:

...or a Virgin Corporation dildo...
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:56pm PaulRobeson1920:

What is actionable to prevent facial recognition??? What could of been done to prevent the Smart Phone??
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm melinda:

the fake saguaro looks like it should start walking away
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm ultradamno:

Is it mounted on the rock or is there more to it within it?
Avatar 6:57pm Bas NL:

Thanks Mark, Jon!
Avatar 6:57pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63:

TY MarkHurst !
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm Stillwell Coney Islander:

Thank you Mark and Jon!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:58pm PaulRobeson1920:

The smaht phone make me smaht too!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:58pm ultradamno:

The phone that smarts
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:58pm Webhamster Henry:

Thanks Mark, and put on that Guy Fawkes mask!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:58pm ARB:

Thanks Mark!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:58pm PaulRobeson1920:

Facial recognition will be welcomed by most people
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:59pm PaulRobeson1920:

Thanks Mark!!! Thank you WFMU! Great show
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:59pm ARB:

My favorite thing about masks being acceptable now, hiding from surveillance. I will keep wearing mine!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:00pm ultradamno:

Well, if they're all exhausted from resisting getting vaccinated, they probably will let facial rec go
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:00pm Ken From Hyde Park:

Thanks, Mark. Year-round Halloween masks!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 8:00pm ARB:

Maybe this got touched on and I missed it but I'm curious about facial recognition on newer iPhones, you can turn it off but is it still spying when it's disabled?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 10:49am Mark Hurst:

@ARB I don't think I've covered that. A few weeks ago I did cover Live Photos and how it keeps turning itself back on even when the user wants it off - but I don't think we've talked about facerec. (I'd imagine similar hijinks as Live Photos, tho haven't read anything yet.)
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