Favoriting Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from December 14, 2020 Favoriting

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Conversations with creators and thinkers who are charting the way forward in a tech-saturated society. In our shift to a digital future, we need alternatives to Big Tech. Homepage: techtonic.fm

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Favoriting December 14, 2020: J. Khadijah Abdurahman on Timnit Gebru's firing and "the moral collapse" of AI ethics

Listen to this show: Pop-up listen Pop-up player!

Pointing to this <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/09/technology/facebook-antitrust-monopoly.html" target="_blank">New York Times article</a> (Dec 9, 2020)
Pointing to this New York Times article (Dec 9, 2020)
Favoriting
Pointing to this New York Times article (Dec 9, 2020)

Tonight: J. Khadijah Abdurahman on Timnit Gebru's firing and "the moral collapse" of AI ethics

Links:

On the Moral Collapse of AI Ethics, by Khadijah (Dec 7, 2020)

• Khadijah on Twitter: @upfromthecracks

We Be Imagining, made possible by Columbia's The American Assembly and the INCITE project

We Be Imagining podcast, hosted by Khadijah

We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google. Here's what it says (by Karen Hao in Technology Review, Dec 4, 2020)

Wikipedia on Dr. Timnit Gebru: "Gebru co-authored a paper on the risks of very large language models, regarding their environmental and financial costs, inscrutability leading to unknown dangerous biases, inability of the models to understand the concepts underlying what they learn, and the potential for using them to deceive people."

Interview with Khadijah on Our Data Bodies (May 2020): "The biggest blind spot in the conversation about algorithms and automated decision making is that often the algorithms are compared to human decision making."

U.S. and States Say Facebook Illegally Crushed Competition (NYT, Dec 9). See also Matt Stoller, in The End of the Facebook Crime Spree (Dec 9): "What Mark Zuckerberg did at Facebook is engage in systemic criminal behavior, and he was able to do so because law enforcers refused to enforce the law against the powerful. That era is over." (Here's my own comment.)

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Artist Track Album Images Approx. start time
  J. Khadijah Abdurahman on Timnit Gebru's firing and "the moral collapse" of AI ethics
Tomaš Dvořák  Game Boy Tune   Favoriting Machinarium Soundtrack 
Favoriting
 
  Mark's intro    
Favoriting
 
  Interview with J. Khadijah Abdurahman    
Favoriting
0:14:25 (Pop-up)
Hachalu Hundessa  Maalan Jira   Favoriting  
Favoriting
0:46:40 (Pop-up)
  Mark's comments    
Favoriting
0:47:29 (Pop-up)
Meme  Hamster Dance   Favoriting     0:55:43 (Pop-up)


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Listener comments!

Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:00pm
ultradamno:

Mark! Techccinees!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:00pm
Handy Haversack:

Mark and the Techyons!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:01pm
listener james from westwood:

Hi ho, Mark and all!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:01pm
DjLorraine:

Techyon, plus +1 tickets please and thank you
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:01pm
Bas NL:

Hi Mark! Human Intelligentees!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:02pm
Webhamster Henry:

I suggest Facebook be split into "Fac" "Ebo and "Ok".
  6:02pm
?:

Mark, what do you know/think about Roblox?
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:02pm
Webhamster Henry:

And Google be split into "Go" "Ogle".
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:03pm
tim from champaign (now washington):

Hey Mark and folks!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:04pm
PaulRobeson1920:

Hello peop le
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:05pm
melinda:

hi everyone
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:05pm
ultradamno:

Did these Google Home people never watch Mr. Robot?
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:06pm
Webhamster Henry:

There was a hiccup in Amazon Web Services too sometime this month - lots lots lots of web sites and apps use AWS.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:07pm
DjLorraine:

📚📖📙 Hi Tim from C
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:08pm
northguineahills:

Am I out of the loop? Have we covered how Goo-Tube controls monetized advertisements if the deem the content obscene. (I'm specifically referencing history podcasts that would show dead bodies in war or in lynching and pogroms.) (they should censor BS that is still propagated on Goo-Tube).
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:11pm
Handy Haversack:

Another reminder that "the cloud" is just "someone else's computer."
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:14pm
Handy Haversack:

I was annoyed that I was the only one of my coworkers awake and trying to work early enough the note that our systems were all taken our by being now imbricate with Go and Ogle.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:14pm
Megaroni:

Amazing that you’re uplifting this woman’s story! Thank you Techtonic
Avatar 6:14pm
Bergey:

Hello all, love when I tune in and get thrust into a random story like this
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:14pm
listener 126464:

Avoid the Smart Cannabis Dispenser.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:17pm
Mark Hurst:

Hi Tim, Webham, Bas, Lorraine, James, Handy, ultra, Paul, melinda, ngh, Megaroni, Bergey, and listener126! Thanks for joining in.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:18pm
northguineahills:

I might have lost a few job interviews by suggesting not using the cloud.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:23pm
tim from champaign (now washington):

J. is saying "Blackened A.I."?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:24pm
Mark Hurst:

"Black in AI"
Avatar 6:25pm
Bergey:

ah that makes more sense
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:26pm
tim from champaign (now washington):

Thanks!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:27pm
ultradamno:

How it started/how it's going
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:27pm
ultradamno:

It's pretty annoying
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:28pm
tim from champaign (now washington):

I'm really suspect of that book.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:29pm
melinda:

@tim me too
Avatar 6:30pm
Stillwell Coney Islander:

Good evening Mark. Welcome Khadijah, thank you for enlightening us on AI ethics decline
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:31pm
Mark Hurst:

@Stillwell welcome! Glad you're enjoying the interview.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:32pm
ultradamno:

Well, at least Pornhub has faced repercussions for questionable content. That's not a low hanging fruit situation at all.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:32pm
tim from champaign (now washington):

re: White Fragility - anytime there's information presented in a way that doesn't allow for discussion and it's based on racial/cultural generalizations, I'm out.
Avatar 6:34pm
Bergey:

I've always felt that A.I. will take over many white collar "thinking" jobs and thus its impact is less racially focused. Automation seems like the exact opposite. I always wonder why companies like Boston Dynamics don't get more flac for it.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:34pm
♪Kɛ:

Yes, for those not familiar with Robin DiAngelo, she is, as far as I can tell, a con artist who has hijacked anti-racism to charge companies thousands of dollars for her garbage version of diversity training.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:34pm
DjLorraine:

Wow
Avatar 6:35pm
Bergey:

mechanical automation i mean
  6:36pm
Dean:

Apropos of the discussion of DiAngelo: https://www.city-journal.org/how-to-be-an-antiracist
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:37pm
northguineahills:

Besides the Oromo, there is also the Tigray rebelling in Ethiopia. Eretria got independence, but we see how well that went for the Eritreans (one of the most repressive regimes in Africa).
  6:43pm
P-90:

“There’s so many reasons why I/we should be dead but I/we aren’t” is her best argument for optimism?
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:43pm
Handy Haversack:

Cheering for Khadijah breaks out in this apartment!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:44pm
tim from champaign (now washington):

Great interview, Khadijah and Mark!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:46pm
♪Kɛ:

@Dean, nah, not that either. That misleadingly respectable-looking "City Journal" comes from the conservative Manhattan Institute for Policy Research. Also it's hilarious to me that now that anti-intellectualism has completely taken over the Republican party, all those William F. Buckley types would be the second or third ones in front of the firing squad in any New Confederacy (heaven forbid).

Anyway, Khadijah seems awesome.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:47pm
melinda:

This really highlights the weakness of the emphasis on representation over effects on people's lives. Great interview.
  6:48pm
Dean:

With respect to Right to Be Forgotten, there has been some discussion. Similarly, the discussion often misses the point, which in my view is technical, namely, the development of automated tools that can in fact approximate norms of relevance. Google fails miserably in this regard.

@Ike: Regardless, the criticism of Kendi's book is good.
  6:49pm
Dean:

I fear anti-intellectualism enjoys bipartisan support.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:49pm
melinda:

@Dean I thought the article was a fair criticism, Kendi's not much better than DiAngelo from what I can tell.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:50pm
PaulRobeson1920:

“What happens to one directly, affects all indirectly” If you can read (and know you can) read the “Letter from the Birmingham jail” April 1963... Like it was written yesterday
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:50pm
DjLorraine:

Transpacific Sound Paradise rob?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:50pm
northguineahills:

@P-90, sounds like optimism to me (I might hold a low bar lately for that).

@Ike: I disagree w/ Buckley 100%, but at least he can defend his beliefs w/ erudite debates. I miss when that was possible.
  6:50pm
Dean:

Agreed, @melinda. Every other page there's an ipse dixit.
  6:51pm
P-90:

“Party”? Say what?
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:51pm
tim from champaign (now washington):

Impromptu party!!!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:51pm
Bas NL:

Ohww YEAH! Partyhardy!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:52pm
melinda:

@ngh not to go too off topic but have you seen The Best Of Enemies, the doc about Buckley's feud with Gore Vidal? Worth watching.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:52pm
Webhamster Henry:

Break-up dancing!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:52pm
listener 126464:

Who got married?
  6:52pm
P-90:

FB’s been asking for it, it was inevitable.
  6:52pm
anders:

by jove's beard, mark hurst is getting funky!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:52pm
tim from champaign (now washington):

Patti Smith's song "Break It Up" was 45 years ahead of it's time!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:52pm
PaulRobeson1920:

(*I know you can)

I have to see you again and again
Take me, Spanish caravan
Yes, I know you can
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:53pm
ultradamno:

This is starting to feel like a John Oliver "WE GOT HIM" bait and switch
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:53pm
Handy Haversack:

CELEBRATE!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:53pm
melinda:

I like Matt Stoller
  6:53pm
Dean:

Wish I could find the marvelous interview with ACLU's Ira Glasser about his relationship with Buckley...
Avatar 6:53pm
Carmichael:

@melinda, that was an epic feud. Worse than Pat Metheny vs Kenny G.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:53pm
DjLorraine:

AG Barr stepped down. I hope Jim Jordan or Cipolone doesn't replace him
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:53pm
northguineahills:

will look for it, melinda!

The EU also is attempting the same.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:53pm
tim from champaign (now washington):

THIS IS THE BEST PARTY!!!!!!!!!!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:53pm
Handy Haversack:

Wine and happiness!
  6:54pm
Niki A:

First time listening. love the show, Mark
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:54pm
melinda:

@Dean he talked a bit about that in an interview I heard, it might have been the one with Reason mag.
Avatar 6:54pm
neeelz:

Bout time!
Amazing news
  6:54pm
Dean:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGI4fc_VB7c&feature=emb_logo

Trigger warning: Glenn Greenwald is the interviewer. I think he's top-notch, but so many people, for reasons I can't entirely fathom, don't like him.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:54pm
northguineahills:

doing my best charlie brown dance!
  6:54pm
space_cadet:

Only just started listening to the show regularly - thanks so much for all the excellent discussion you provide!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:54pm
Webhamster Henry:

<dancing emoji>
  6:54pm
P-90:

Maybe different music for the next party, Mark...?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:54pm
Megaroni:

I am outside dancing! Yes Techtonic! Great news
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:54pm
Handy Haversack:

Love, music, wine, and revolution!
Avatar 6:55pm
Carmichael:

Hunter Thompson wrote some articles where he delves into his friendship with Patrick Buchanon.
  6:55pm
Bea:

Want to see video of you rocking out, Mark!!
  6:55pm
Dean:

Is this the only antitrust party in town?! Hey, wait a minute!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:55pm
DjLorraine:

Woot
Avatar 🤖 6:55pm
herb.nyc:

That was a fun Andy Trust party!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:55pm
melinda:

I like your additions Mark...break em up break em up haha
  6:55pm
Dean:

There are companies to sue!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:55pm
tim from champaign (now washington):

Time to break up the holiday party, folks.Techtonic has a monopoly on good times!
Avatar 6:55pm
Bergey:

I once set up a stage at a gala for Diana Ross and this song was played for hours over and over by the sound check people. and now it drives me crazy
Avatar 6:56pm
Carmichael:

And to top it off, Biden formally passed the electoral college!
  6:56pm
Sam:

BREAK THEM UP!!!
BREAK THEM UP!!!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:56pm
♪Kɛ:

Didn't Greenwald just come out as a tankie? Or did I misunderstand something he said about China?
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:56pm
PaulRobeson1920:

Hahaha Good Stuff Mark! Thanks Skeltons! Peace and love ya’ll!
Allright! Ken the King Snake!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:56pm
Bas NL:

Thanks Mark! Thanks Khadijah! WFMU crew!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm
melinda:

thanks Mark!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:57pm
Handy Haversack:

Thanks, Mark! Thanks, Khadijah!

Be well, Techyon Drives. Keep reaching for the stars!
  6:57pm
Sam:

Facebook = Faceplant
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm
Scott Williams:

Hahaaa, nice exit Mark! Enjoy your time off!
Avatar 6:57pm
Stillwell Coney Islander:

CHEERS!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm
northguineahills:

I think the one reason people dislike Grenwald, is that he's a dick personally/ He also has done some things in print that stretched the truth and did a "you're not helping" (otherwise, I like him).

I read that Carmichael!

Thanks Mark!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm
Mark Hurst:

Thanks, everyone! Going out on a positive note! See you in two weeks!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:57pm
Webhamster Henry:

Have a great time off!
Also: I am not one of these hamsters.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:57pm
paddy in matawan:

woowoo
  6:57pm
Dean:

I had to look up "tankie." News to me. His agenda has been pretty clear for ages.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm
adampsyche:

thanks for the hamster dance!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:58pm
Mark Hurst:

@Scott thanks, my friend!
Avatar 6:58pm
Stillwell Coney Islander:

Thank you Mark !
Avatar 6:58pm
Carmichael:

This is my jam.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:58pm
melinda:

@Scott he knows how to exit in style
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:58pm
paddy in matawan:

Early memes rule. New memes are soooooo dumb.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:58pm
Bootsie:

Whyyyyyy can't I clicky star "Hamster Dance"??
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:58pm
tim from champaign (now washington):

THanks, Mark! Party hard!
Avatar 6:58pm
Carmichael:

Where's the dancing baby?!?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:58pm
melinda:

@ngh I think you are right
  6:58pm
Dean:

I hear you, @ngh, except I've never regarded (most of) his behavior as dick-ish. Compare, say, most mainstream media commentators. They're incessant dicks.
Avatar 6:58pm
Honeybear:

One of my favorite HST moment was the one where he relates how he bonded with Nixon over football during a (brief) shared car ride
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:58pm
northguineahills:

Bootsie makes a fair point.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:59pm
Mark Hurst:

You can clicky now!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:59pm
listener 126464:

You might want to spice this page up with a hit counter.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:59pm
Webhamster Henry:

Time to Rickroll Mark.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:59pm
Mark Hurst:

...and a BLINK tag
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:59pm
listener 126464:

Thanks Mark and J.
  7:00pm
P-90:

Thanks and Happy Holidays Mark!
Avatar 7:00pm
Carmichael:

Or Markroll Rick.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 7:00pm
Ken From Hyde Park:

Thanks, Mark. Take care.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:00pm
northguineahills:

True, Dean. Most journalist are way worst in every way possible!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:00pm
Bootsie:

Thank you Mark!!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 7:00pm
Webhamster Henry:

Friend me on Friendster.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:00pm
northguineahills:

True, Dean. Most journalist are way worst in every way possible!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:00pm
♪Kɛ:

Some of the online definitions are incorrect. The best one is "apologist for the violence and crimes against humanity perpetrated by 20th-century Marxist-Leninist regimes, particularly the Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin (1924 - 1953)", but as currently used it also extends to China.
  8:11pm
Smokey the Bar:

Google thinks I wanna be a firefighter from all my communications with our fire department over my cruel landlord blocking exits. The fire department made him fix it. You can be assuaged fear.
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