WFMU: Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from April 27, 2020

Listener comments!
	♥ 6:00pm ultradamno: Hello Mark! Techtonsilibertarians!
	♥ 6:01pm Handy Haversack: Greetings, Mark and the Techyon particles! Actually, I need a little more Techgin to go with this Techtonic ...
	♥ 6:01pm listener james from westwood: Evening, Mark and all!
	♥ 6:01pm Carmichael: Heya Mark and fellow Google haters.
	♥ 6:01pm Bas NL: Hi Mark! Techgintonics!
	♥ 6:01pm Fuzzy: Good evening!
	♥ 6:02pm listener james from westwood: OMFG the 2nd photo on the playlist!
	6:03pm ignatatus666: Hey Mark hope all is well at the home front If anyone remembers the episode where it was a discussion about police blocks in China that some people were being taken and the police were putting color coded armbands. I would appreciate that information.
	♥ 6:03pm Mark Hurst: Hi all! Thanks for joining in.
	♥ 6:03pm Phillippe Bastille: Hey Mark and techies
	♥ 6:03pm chris: hey, Mark and folks. really looking forward to this conversation this evening.
	♥ 6:04pm Webhamster Henry: Hi quarantonics!
	6:05pm David in London: Evening all.
	♥ 6:06pm Ken From Hyde Park: Greetings, Mark and the Techtcosmos.
	♥ 6:06pm queems: hi mark hurst & all
	♥ 6:07pm Mr. Pumpy: Hello, Mark and all the techies!
	♥ 6:08pm Mark Hurst: Phillippe, chris, Webham, David, KfHP, queems, Pumpy! Greetings to one and all.
	♥ 6:08pm Bas NL: At the moment many 5G mobile antenna towers get torched in the NL.. word on social media is 5G injects Corona in people...
	♥ 6:08pm Mr. Pumpy: Hey, Handy...I made it! I just got back to pop's and I'm going to prepare dinner while listening to tonight's special guest and drinking some TechCider.
	♥ 6:08pm spodiodi: preach on, Mark. greets to your guest, Daniel Kahn GIllmor hi all
	♥ 6:08pm Handy Haversack: So Andreeeeeeeeeeeeesen says that the problem with America is that we're not sufficiently subservient to financialization. I'm in. Start-upping the pets right now! Hey, Mr. P!
	♥ 6:09pm chresti: Hi Mark and Tectonicals!
	6:09pm dkg: hi Mark, Handy, all! (i'm the dkg in the interview)
	♥ 6:09pm herb.nyc: i wanna show my appreciation and to say thank you, to marc andreessen.
	♥ 6:09pm queems: the hydroxychloroquine meme made me lol irl
	♥ 6:10pm Handy Haversack: Hey, dkg! Good to see you here, pal!
	♥ 6:10pm Mark Hurst: dkg! Thanks for showing up! Ladies and gentlemen, our esteemed guest this evening.
	♥ 6:10pm Bas NL: Hi dkg!
	♥ 6:10pm Mr. Pumpy: @dkg...looking forward to it! You have been spoken highly of...don't let me down ;)
	6:11pm drgraefy: @Handy hello
	♥ 6:12pm Handy Haversack: @drgraefy: Hello!
	♥ 6:12pm herb.nyc: targeted ads - that was mentioned on wnyc's REVEAL, last night. re youtube. i'd like to show appreciation to them and say thank you, youtube.
	♥ 6:13pm Mark Hurst: @herb now that's proper appreciation - your social credit score is zooming upward
	♥ 6:14pm Handy Haversack: When all they serve is rageohol, you get rageoholics.
	♥ 6:15pm herb.nyc: social credit score, that was part of a novel by gary shteyngart, set in the future. people have portable devices to look at other people's worth.
	♥ 6:16pm Mark Hurst: Super Sad True Love Story
	♥ 6:16pm herb.nyc: right, i could not recall title, thanks.
	♥ 6:16pm Bas NL: I received several emails last week with a similar question that didn't make sense to me.. It seemed i was mentioned on FB and people all misread that message.
	♥ 6:17pm ultradamno: Trump's suggestion of drinking or injecting bleach is the outside fringe of the same thinking that leads people to believe drinking a gallon of vodka as fast as you can will do anything better than dehydrate you.
	6:18pm JakeGould: Maybe cancer can fight the Coronavirus? Like we shine a very powerful cancer light on someone with Coronavirus? That could work, right?
	♥ 6:19pm queems: oopsy doodle
	♥ 6:19pm coelacanth∅: i'll be glad to ...seriously ecstatic to watch ronaldmcdonald trump drink bleach. (even though it means seeing his disgusting countenance)
	6:19pm David in London: Big Tech - unsafe at any speed.
	♥ 6:20pm chris: but if the US AG can lie to congress and get away with it, why can't any other overpriced suit?
	♥ 6:20pm Handy Haversack: "Can't someone else do it?" is in the Constitution, right?
	♥ 6:20pm MD: Thank You Techtonic! THEY LIE WE DIE...U$A...
	♥ 6:20pm melinda: Hi everyone
	6:21pm drgraefy: @Handy both houses were waiting for the other to ratify
	6:22pm northguineahills: @coel: cue the Dead Milmen's "Bleach Boys"
	♥ 6:22pm Mark Hurst: Thanks, Handy!
	♥ 6:23pm chris: but Mark, if big tech is responding to financial pressure (the market, investors, share holders, etc.), why aren't we blaming the financial markets for all this nonsense? they are the enablers, are they not?
	♥ 6:23pm Megaroni: Keep it coming Techtonic! Thank Goddess for your incredible show
	♥ 6:23pm Handy Haversack: My great pleasure!
	♥ 6:23pm Phillippe Bastille: Yeah Handy! Famouser than you were just moments ago!
	6:24pm dkg: he's always been famous
	♥ 6:24pm Mark Hurst: @chris the Stoller excerpt I read did mention financiers... see also the Rana Foroohar interview recently, and the Frank Pasquale interview awhile back, all talking about the intersection of Wall Street and Big Tech ("financialization")
	♥ 6:24pm Handy Haversack: Tell the kingfisher, Phillippe!
	♥ 6:24pm Mark Hurst: @Megaroni thanks!
	♥ 6:25pm Phillippe Bastille: @Handy oh, the kingfisher knows. He's like Santa Claus
	6:25pm Russ Never Sleeps: Mark, thank you for acknowledging that this lockdown is difficult, even for someone as level-headed as you. If I may ask, what about it is challenging for you personally? For me, I live alone, so it's the isolation...yesterday was 6 weeks since I had any meaningful contact with anyone.
	6:26pm drgraefy: @Russ you're not alone
	6:26pm mjgoins: analog? :P
	♥ 6:27pm Mark Hurst: @Russ well for one thing, vis-a-vis the show, I don't get to see (in person) my friends at WFMU every Monday afternoon. So I understand the feeling of isolation you're talking about
	♥ 6:28pm Bas NL: Our government is working on an app. Key feature now required is it should be developed Open Source.
	6:28pm dkg: mjgoins: as a contrast to digital. Of course most of that kind of contact-tracing these days will put humans in the position of data entry specialists, and all the "analog" data gathering ends up in some sort of digital database anyway, with all the potential risks there.
	♥ 6:28pm Franco Twinkie: Hi Mark, sometime in the early 1970's, The National Lampoon had their own version of a Sunday newspaper with twisted and absurd takes on the current events of the times. They also had the advertising inserts that float any Sunday newspaper. One thing that was particularly hilarious was the grocery store ads - nothing you would want to put in your mouth for sure. The most perposterous thing of all was Dinner Bleach! I was on the floor - the very idea! But alas, to some people that is apparently a very, very good beverage choice(!?!)
	♥ 6:29pm chris: thanks, Mark... just a suggestion to begin expanding your message every week to include the immorality inherent in the financial system, as they are the enablers of these tech bad actors.
	♥ 6:29pm herb.nyc: --i click on HOW WE REOPEN and it's not working. working for you others?
	6:30pm dkg: Bas NL: i'm a software developer who only works on free/libre open source software. It's definitely important that the tools be auditable and fixable in ways that software freedom allows (see the whitepaper!). But there are many more aspects that need to be considered as well.
	♥ 6:30pm Carmichael: @Franco, I still have that Sunday newspaper parody. Will have to re-visit it.
	♥ 6:30pm chris: re contact tracing - can we even trust the test results used in tracking?
	♥ 6:30pm Franco Twinkie: I wish I did!
	♥ 6:31pm Webhamster Henry: @FrancoTwinkie That was teh Nt LAmp Sunday newspaper, set in the same world as their excellent high school yearbook of 1964. The supermarket ads in the newspaper - printed on cheap newsprint - were by Bruce McCall.
	6:31pm Phillippe Bastille: Russ, that’s gotta be tough. I would be in the same boat without my bride and boomerang young adults. Haven’t had a face to face meeting with a client since last summer, and I’m new to our neighborhood so no close friends nearby. Hang in there.
	6:31pm dkg: chris: if we don't have effective medical testing for COVID-19, then no contact-tracing application will work at all.
	♥ 6:31pm Mark Hurst: @herb since Vi's site seems to be down, I reluctantly point to the video hosted on evil-G's video service - www.youtube.com...
	♥ 6:31pm Fuzzy: @herb.nyc: I ping vihart.com and it responds but it's not serving web pages for some reason.
	♥ 6:31pm Mark Hurst: @dkg agreed!
	♥ 6:32pm ultradamno: Video of Trump supporter Johnny Rotten making the unfortunate comparison between Trump and 'medicine' we need to take www.youtube.com...
	♥ 6:32pm spodiodi: Franco, not 1970, but you may have seen that The Onion ran a related piece a month ago too local.theonion.com...
	♥ 6:32pm Bas NL: @dkg For sure it does not stop data to go to wrong parties once collected.. not sure how they will handle that!
	♥ 6:32pm Carmichael: I kept a lot of NatLamp magazines and associated stuff. I also have the high school yearbook.
	♥ 6:33pm Handy Haversack: But effective medical tests would require some sort of technology ... maybe Google can help with that!
	♥ 6:33pm Franco Twinkie: Bruce McCall, that figures!
	♥ 6:33pm Ignatatus666: Ultradamno John Lyndon or someone using his name. Lyndon is not a Trumper
	♥ 6:33pm Webhamster Henry: @mark we could trace the contacts, and even if it's not used for infections, it could be nice for tracing "terrorists", definition of which is pretty flexible.
	♥ 6:34pm Mark Hurst: @Franco interesting about the NL parody paper. So disappointing, to put it lightly, that the parody has become reality. (See also the movies Wall-E and Idiocracy)
	6:34pm Dave Miss: Bruce McCall called it. Pass the rage-a-hol
	♥ 6:34pm ultradamno: Except, you know, he is.
	6:34pm dkg: @Webmaster Henry: that's a real concern. This is why any such proposal needs to be narrowly tailored to a specific pandemic.
	♥ 6:36pm Mr. Pumpy: I've me headphones on while chopping and rubbing in the kitchen (broccoli and salmon respectively), but I just wanted to pop back on the keyboard and say this is a great interview! And yes, I'm rubbing salmon in the kitchen...it was asking for it.
	♥ 6:37pm Webhamster Henry: @dkg there's a concept in HIPAA and other protocols about information only on a need to know, so you only get the metadata you're allowed to get.
	♥ 6:37pm Handy Haversack: You're definitely getting serious when you break out the meters, @dkg!
	♥ 6:37pm Bas NL: Yep, i get the concerns you just raised in the interview @dkg.
	6:37pm dkg: @Webmaster Henry: those protocols are all policy-enforced, if we can avoid the data even being available to be subject to policy, that can be an even stronger control over the data.
	♥ 6:38pm Mark Hurst: @Pumpy mmm salmon and broccoli
	6:38pm dkg: @Handy: doesn't everyone use meters? Didn't you learn anything in Cecilia's class?
	♥ 6:38pm dale: re bruce mccall - zany afternoons is a great book.
	♥ 6:38pm ultradamno: Trump is just so desperately scared because the economy chugging well was all he had and this is a real spanner in the works. So, yeah, people who would vote for me, why not try spraying Lysol up your nose?
	♥ 6:39pm Handy Haversack: HIPAA also comes out of a historical culture of respecting privacy. Apple and Google ... don't.
	♥ 6:39pm Somm Ben: Along the lines of this conversation right now, two rounds of test have shown that more than 20% of New Yorkers may have already had COVID. Is contact tracing practical in this case?
	♥ 6:40pm Mark Hurst: @Somm Ben I'll defer to @dkg on that one!
	♥ 6:40pm Webhamster Henry: It can be like HP printers and order you a test that'll show up in 10 business days.
	♥ 6:40pm listener james from westwood: Clippy: "It looks like you're attempting to use a global crisis for corporate gain. Would you like the numbers of some pliable members of Congress?"
	♥ 6:40pm Somm Ben: Thanks Mark, great show.
	♥ 6:41pm Mark Hurst: @Webham let's hope the cyan color cartridge doesn't run out after two tests
	6:41pm dkg: @Somm Ben: good question -- if 20% are infectious currently, and no one is trying to be socially distant, i can't imagine that any system like this would be more effective than a public messaging campaign that says "assume you've been exposed"
	♥ 6:41pm Mark Hurst: @James from westwood - don't give Microsoft any ideas!
	6:42pm dkg: but remember that 20% "have already had" doesn't mean 20% "infectious". and if the general public is already being wary and cautious, then contact-tracing might help to flatten a secondary outbreak.
	♥ 6:42pm Webhamster Henry: @Mark it'll be like my Epson "3rd party cartridge not recognized" because there're no standards for different test manufacturers. Just as incompatible as ink carts!
	♥ 6:43pm Somm Ben: Thanks dkg, I see your point about second outbreak.
	6:43pm dkg: but your skepticism is definitely warranted -- please don't let go of it!
	♥ 6:44pm chris: i am not hearing anything that says contact tracing is any better than sheltering in place until every single human can get tested. is that a fair summary?
	♥ 6:44pm Handy Haversack: And a recurring fear around this apartment at least is that these measures would then impose bars to entry to services -- food stores, transport, jobs, whatever -- where you have to demonstrate a "safe" rating on a smartphone to gain access. With "safe" possibly being totally meaningless. And with those of us who have already made sure not to allow smartphones in our lives possibly prevented from these basic services because we can't demonstrate our adherence to a standard we can't even access. IOW: well, I never intended to shop at Whole Foods anyway.
	♥ 6:44pm queems: i made the post 9/11 comparison the other day to someone when talking about this
	6:44pm dkg: @chris: not everyone can afford to shelter in place, though.
	♥ 6:44pm Somm Ben: Richard Reid
	♥ 6:45pm Webhamster Henry: The proximity networking is also used by peer-to-peer networking and people I know at LoudHailer are touting their peer-to-peer software as a contact tracing tech.
	♥ 6:45pm Mark Hurst: Precedent, and the shoe bomber, also came up in my interview with Chris Gilliard on April 6: www.wfmu.org...
	6:46pm drgraefy: waffle house!! dkg just outed himself as an Atlantan.
	♥ 6:46pm Somm Ben: How about the potential for someone hacking this network?
	♥ 6:46pm Handy Haversack: Scattered, smothered, and covered!
	6:46pm David in London: We’re going to end up like the subterranean humans worshipping the bomb at the end of Beneath the Planet is the Apes.
	♥ 6:46pm ultradamno: Mayor of Waffle House. Those were the days.
	♥ 6:46pm Carmichael: Yes, Chris! Newsom is working toward 60,000 tests a day. What happens when everyone is tested?
	6:46pm dkg: @Handy: right, that kind of coercion is really insidious, and we need to be clear that it's not acceptable. These systems need to be truly voluntary.
	♥ 6:46pm spodiodi: waffle house has a farther reach than ATL
	♥ 6:46pm Handy Haversack: (It's because mayor of Waffle House sounds so cool.)
	♥ 6:47pm Handy Haversack: @dkg, aaahhhh, thanks for saying this out loud! Brother!
	♥ 6:47pm Carmichael: @David, I was thinking more along the lines of THX-1138.
	♥ 6:47pm Ken From Hyde Park: Just issue everyone a wristband that buzzes of you come too close to another person - www.thedrive.com...
	♥ 6:48pm chris: Carm, we have science, most importantly. and we have existing privacy laws to protect us.
	♥ 6:48pm Somm Ben: Props on the no cell phone carrying. Only met a few people like that.
	♥ 6:48pm spodiodi: handy & dkg -- i feel same about not having a phone, but recently caved (again) and bought another year of service. mostly i kept it for the phone so family could reach me
	♥ 6:48pm Carmichael: @Chris, and we have Clorox ...
	6:48pm drgraefy: waiting for Handy to chime in...
	♥ 6:48pm ultradamno: @handy Plus, all the syrup legislation you could pass or veto...the POWER
	6:49pm Dean: Network effect: a neutral-sounding phenomenon that proponents (of phones, etc.) use to impose those social pressures.
	6:50pm dkg: @sodipodi, that's exactly what i'm saying -- everyone needs to stay connected to their family, and if you can't do that without one of these devices, it's understandable to have one. but what a weird tradeoff that we've made in our society: that to stay connected to your family and friends many people need to carry a device that is controlled by a major corporation :(
	♥ 6:50pm Mark Hurst: "No shirt, no shoes, no app, no service. Welcome to Amazon Grocery!"
	♥ 6:50pm spodiodi: chirs @ 6:29 finance + tech was a disaster that's never getting undone. heavens help us.
	♥ 6:50pm Handy Haversack: "Cashless" is a great way to eliminate employees, too.
	6:51pm drgraefy: Our society makes many many decisions to let corporations control things. it's not good. using a cell phone is not the only one, or even the worst.
	6:51pm dkg: @Handy -- yep, it is definitely an anti-labor move.
	♥ 6:51pm Carmichael: I'm getting rid of ALL my credit cards. And I use cash a lot. My small and futile way of sticking it to the man.
	♥ 6:52pm Handy Haversack: @dkg, also, Bagpipe says "grunt" -- and sends his love.
	♥ 6:52pm Webhamster Henry: Go for local currencies.
	♥ 6:52pm spodiodi: the upside of my long paranoid tech existence is that more and more people are becoming aware of the nefarious nature. thank you MArk and dkg
	♥ 6:52pm Mark Hurst: @spodiodi thanks - awareness is the first task!
	♥ 6:53pm chresti: Thanks Mark!
	♥ 6:53pm chris: thanks for the convo, Mark and dkg.
	♥ 6:53pm melinda: I worry that the political polarization of reactions to the pandemic will lead to an unquestioning assumption that tech-assisted contact tracing is something all good and responsible people should submit to.
	♥ 6:53pm ultradamno: ...or, because you can't get a credit card, you're pushed to options like reloadable debit cards that leech more money from you in surcharges.
	6:53pm drgraefy: thanks dkg. great interview
	♥ 6:53pm Handy Haversack: Thanks, Mark and dkg! This was a great segment. Hugely important material to put in public discussion! Thanks so much to you and the Skeletons!
	♥ 6:53pm Bas NL: Thanks @dkg. Very informative. And thanks again Mark!
	6:53pm dkg: NY and NJ were both banning cashless business last i checked. I don't know how COVID-19 will affect those laws.
	♥ 6:53pm Mark Hurst: Thanks again to @dkg! And to @Handy Haversack for the intro!
	♥ 6:54pm Franco Twinkie: Oh boy, are we in trouble.
	♥ 6:54pm Webhamster Henry: Thanks Mark! Hear ya next week!
	♥ 6:55pm Handy Haversack: Kate's response to that pledge sums it up neatly: "Uh huh."
	♥ 6:55pm queems: thanks mark & all!
	♥ 6:55pm coelacanth∅: Thanks Mark
	6:55pm Dean: Porno for Pyros?
	♥ 6:56pm ultradamno: Is that a Vermeer onion, so nice it makes you cry?
	♥ 6:56pm Mark Hurst: @Dean you got it
	♥ 6:56pm Stillwell Coney Islander: Thank you Mark! Thanks Handy Haversack!
	6:56pm dkg: we're gonna need to hold them to that promise of making it temporary.
	♥ 6:56pm Webhamster Henry: As an Apple Dev, All it'll take is a few iOS upgrades to make the contact tracking software go obsolete!
	6:56pm David in London: Really good, albeit dispiriting, show Mark.
	♥ 6:56pm listener 126464: it's fun getting into trouble
	♥ 6:56pm listener james from westwood: Thanks, Mark!
	♥ 6:56pm Corey: Thanks Mark for another informative show. Be well.
	♥ 6:56pm Mark Hurst: I also thought this song was apropos to tonight's interview. Let's try not to become pets...
	♥ 6:56pm listener 126464: Thanks Mark, guest, crew
	♥ 6:57pm spodiodi: nice closing song, Mark
	♥ 6:57pm Listener Robert: Mr. Hurst, get up to date: pledge.wfmu.org...
	6:57pm dkg: thanks for the show, Mark! thanks everyone for the conversation!
	♥ 6:57pm Mark Hurst: @Corey thanks, you too
	♥ 6:57pm Mark Hurst: @Robert oops, thanks for the correction
	♥ 6:57pm spodiodi: come on, Martians!
	♥ 6:57pm Handy Haversack: @dkg: I can just imagine how fast that pledge evaporates once someone offers to monetize it. As Mark always reminds us, the SV business model is profit above all -- sell (out) anything and anyone to get there.
	♥ 6:57pm Ken From Hyde Park: Thanks, Mark & dkg. There should be a Groundhog Day bit that predicts how long the lockdown will last.
	♥ 6:57pm ultradamno: Trump sandwich twitter.com...
	♥ 6:58pm ultradamno: I assume it has a core of excrement.
	♥ 6:58pm Listener Robert: And that means we're "owed" a certain naked photo.
	♥ 6:58pm Mark Hurst: @dkg thanks so much!
	6:58pm dkg: yep, which means we need auditing and reviews and advocacy and activism.
	♥ 6:58pm Mark Hurst: @Robert maybe subconsciously I was hoping to avoid that
	♥ 6:58pm spodiodi: never eating ham again, ultramon
	♥ 6:59pm Handy Haversack: Thanks for what you do on those lines, @dkg! And remember you have to help me set up a computer once we're allowed to be in an apt. as small as mine again!
	♥ 6:59pm Bas NL: Woof! Moo!
	♥ 6:59pm Mark Hurst: Bye, everyone, stay safe & have a good week!
	♥ 7:00pm Listener Robert: And we got to the goal sooner than last year!
	♥ 7:00pm Bas NL: Goal! :D

Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from April 27, 2020

View Mark Hurst's profile

Conversations with creators and thinkers who are charting the way forward in a tech-saturated society. Tech, community, video games, and whatever else is next.

Also available as an MP3 podcast. More info at our Podcast Central page.

<-- Previous playlist | Back to Techtonic with Mark Hurst playlists | Next playlist -->

Upcoming events:

Mon. Aug 2nd, 6pm - 7pm: Sports and tech (More info...)
Robots are judging sports today, from the Olympics to the minor leagues of baseball. On the next Techtonic, Mark discusses sports, tech, and a few movie picks with his friend Paul.

April 27, 2020: Contact tracing, pros and cons - with Daniel Kahn Gillmor, ACLU senior staff technologist

Listen to this show: MP3 - 128K | Pop‑up player!

Tonight: Daniel Kahn Gillmor, senior staff technologist at the ACLU

From our guest, Daniel Kahn Gillmor, aka "dkg":

• Daniel Kahn Gillmor bio on ACLU site

• Principles for Technology-Assisted Contact-Tracing, white paper posted April 16 (or get direct PDF download)

• Daniel quoted in Fast Company (April 16): "While some technology-assisted contact-tracing systems may offer public health benefits, they may also cause significant risks to privacy, civil rights, and civil liberties. We need a sober consideration of the risks and tradeoffs of such a system so that it protects not only the fundamental right to health, but also our rights of privacy and free association."

• I Cut the 'Big Five' Tech Giants From My Life. It Was Hell (Kashmir Hill in Gizmodo, Feb 7, 2019): "'My main concern is people being able to lead autonomous healthy lives that they have control over,' Gillmor tells me during a chat via Jitsi, an open-source video-conferencing service that will work on any web browser."

• Facebook Is Tracking Me Even Though I’m Not on Facebook (Gillmor, April 2018)

Tech news:

• Ian Bogost comments on Marc Andreessen's essay (April 19): "Marc Andreessen, famous for 'software eats the world,' now suddenly says maybe we should have some world part too, but manages somehow not to cop to having been a part of the wrongdoing." See also Kevin Roose's comment and this reflection from past Techtonic guest Vicki Boykis.

• Chris Gilliard comments on Facebook targeting people interested in 'pseudoscience' (April 23). Chris was recently on the show - see the April 6 episode. See also this comment from Siva Vaidhyanathan, another past guest of the show.

• Davey Alba reports (April 24): "Twitter says Trump's statements last night throwing out the idea of injecting disinfectant to kill coronavirus 'do not violate our COVID-19 misinformation policy.'"

• Antitrust After the Coronavirus (by Matt Stoller, April 26): "American institutions are organized entirely around the short-term horizon of financiers, and these financiers seek to create monopolies and to grab cash by thinning out supply lines and generating hidden risk."

• Apple and Google pledge to shut down coronavirus tracker when pandemic ends (The Verge, April 24): "On Friday, Apple and Google revised their ambitious automatic contact-tracing proposal, just two weeks after the system was first announced. ... On a call accompanying the announcement, representatives from each company pledged for the first time to disable the service after the outbreak had been sufficiently contained. Such a decision would have to be made on a region-by-region basis, and it’s unclear how public health authorities would reach such a determination. However, the engineers stated definitively that the APIs were not intended to be maintained indefinitely."

• Covid roadmap from bipartisan panel at Harvard, summarized in this video - How We Reopen - by mathematician Vi Hart.

- - -

YOU CAN STILL DONATE TO WFMU if you want to show support for Techtonic. Thanks.

Check out techtonic.fm for recent Techtonic interviews and Little Slice of Tech Pie segments.

PODCAST: Subscribe to the Techtonic podcast

Artist	Track	Album	Label	Approx. start time
Daniel Kahn Gillmor, senior staff technologist at the ACLU, discusses contact tracing and the Apple-Google partnership.
Tomaš Dvořák	Game Boy Tune	Machinarium Soundtrack	No label
	Mark's intro			0:00:06 (MP3 \| Pop‑up)
	Interview with Daniel Kahn Gillmor, Part 1			0:21:23 (MP3 \| Pop‑up)
	Interview with Daniel Kahn Gillmor, Part 2			0:35:22 (MP3 \| Pop‑up)
Kosmicher Läufer	Morgenröte	The Secret Cosmic Music of the East German Olympic Program 1972-83, Vol. 2	Unknown Capability Recordings	0:51:25 (MP3 \| Pop‑up)
	Mark's comments			0:52:31 (MP3 \| Pop‑up)
Porno For Pyros	Pets	Porno for Pyros	Warner Bros. Records	0:54:54 (MP3 \| Pop‑up)

RSS feeds for Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlists feed | MP3 archives feed

| E-mail Mark Hurst | Other WFMU Playlists | All artists played by Techtonic with Mark Hurst |

Listener comments!
	♥ 6:00pm ultradamno: Hello Mark! Techtonsilibertarians!
	♥ 6:01pm Handy Haversack: Greetings, Mark and the Techyon particles! Actually, I need a little more Techgin to go with this Techtonic ...
	♥ 6:01pm listener james from westwood: Evening, Mark and all!
	♥ 6:01pm Carmichael: Heya Mark and fellow Google haters.
	♥ 6:01pm Bas NL: Hi Mark! Techgintonics!
	♥ 6:01pm Fuzzy: Good evening!
	♥ 6:02pm listener james from westwood: OMFG the 2nd photo on the playlist!
	6:03pm ignatatus666: Hey Mark hope all is well at the home front If anyone remembers the episode where it was a discussion about police blocks in China that some people were being taken and the police were putting color coded armbands. I would appreciate that information.
	♥ 6:03pm Mark Hurst: Hi all! Thanks for joining in.
	♥ 6:03pm Phillippe Bastille: Hey Mark and techies
	♥ 6:03pm chris: hey, Mark and folks. really looking forward to this conversation this evening.
	♥ 6:04pm Webhamster Henry: Hi quarantonics!
	6:05pm David in London: Evening all.
	♥ 6:06pm Ken From Hyde Park: Greetings, Mark and the Techtcosmos.
	♥ 6:06pm queems: hi mark hurst & all
	♥ 6:07pm Mr. Pumpy: Hello, Mark and all the techies!
	♥ 6:08pm Mark Hurst: Phillippe, chris, Webham, David, KfHP, queems, Pumpy! Greetings to one and all.
	♥ 6:08pm Bas NL: At the moment many 5G mobile antenna towers get torched in the NL.. word on social media is 5G injects Corona in people...
	♥ 6:08pm Mr. Pumpy: Hey, Handy...I made it! I just got back to pop's and I'm going to prepare dinner while listening to tonight's special guest and drinking some TechCider.
	♥ 6:08pm spodiodi: preach on, Mark. greets to your guest, Daniel Kahn GIllmor hi all
	♥ 6:08pm Handy Haversack: So Andreeeeeeeeeeeeesen says that the problem with America is that we're not sufficiently subservient to financialization. I'm in. Start-upping the pets right now! Hey, Mr. P!
	♥ 6:09pm chresti: Hi Mark and Tectonicals!
	6:09pm dkg: hi Mark, Handy, all! (i'm the dkg in the interview)
	♥ 6:09pm herb.nyc: i wanna show my appreciation and to say thank you, to marc andreessen.
	♥ 6:09pm queems: the hydroxychloroquine meme made me lol irl
	♥ 6:10pm Handy Haversack: Hey, dkg! Good to see you here, pal!
	♥ 6:10pm Mark Hurst: dkg! Thanks for showing up! Ladies and gentlemen, our esteemed guest this evening.
	♥ 6:10pm Bas NL: Hi dkg!
	♥ 6:10pm Mr. Pumpy: @dkg...looking forward to it! You have been spoken highly of...don't let me down ;)
	6:11pm drgraefy: @Handy hello
	♥ 6:12pm Handy Haversack: @drgraefy: Hello!
	♥ 6:12pm herb.nyc: targeted ads - that was mentioned on wnyc's REVEAL, last night. re youtube. i'd like to show appreciation to them and say thank you, youtube.
	♥ 6:13pm Mark Hurst: @herb now that's proper appreciation - your social credit score is zooming upward
	♥ 6:14pm Handy Haversack: When all they serve is rageohol, you get rageoholics.
	♥ 6:15pm herb.nyc: social credit score, that was part of a novel by gary shteyngart, set in the future. people have portable devices to look at other people's worth.
	♥ 6:16pm Mark Hurst: Super Sad True Love Story
	♥ 6:16pm herb.nyc: right, i could not recall title, thanks.
	♥ 6:16pm Bas NL: I received several emails last week with a similar question that didn't make sense to me.. It seemed i was mentioned on FB and people all misread that message.
	♥ 6:17pm ultradamno: Trump's suggestion of drinking or injecting bleach is the outside fringe of the same thinking that leads people to believe drinking a gallon of vodka as fast as you can will do anything better than dehydrate you.
	6:18pm JakeGould: Maybe cancer can fight the Coronavirus? Like we shine a very powerful cancer light on someone with Coronavirus? That could work, right?
	♥ 6:19pm queems: oopsy doodle
	♥ 6:19pm coelacanth∅: i'll be glad to ...seriously ecstatic to watch ronaldmcdonald trump drink bleach. (even though it means seeing his disgusting countenance)
	6:19pm David in London: Big Tech - unsafe at any speed.
	♥ 6:20pm chris: but if the US AG can lie to congress and get away with it, why can't any other overpriced suit?
	♥ 6:20pm Handy Haversack: "Can't someone else do it?" is in the Constitution, right?
	♥ 6:20pm MD: Thank You Techtonic! THEY LIE WE DIE...U$A...
	♥ 6:20pm melinda: Hi everyone
	6:21pm drgraefy: @Handy both houses were waiting for the other to ratify
	6:22pm northguineahills: @coel: cue the Dead Milmen's "Bleach Boys"
	♥ 6:22pm Mark Hurst: Thanks, Handy!
	♥ 6:23pm chris: but Mark, if big tech is responding to financial pressure (the market, investors, share holders, etc.), why aren't we blaming the financial markets for all this nonsense? they are the enablers, are they not?
	♥ 6:23pm Megaroni: Keep it coming Techtonic! Thank Goddess for your incredible show
	♥ 6:23pm Handy Haversack: My great pleasure!
	♥ 6:23pm Phillippe Bastille: Yeah Handy! Famouser than you were just moments ago!
	6:24pm dkg: he's always been famous
	♥ 6:24pm Mark Hurst: @chris the Stoller excerpt I read did mention financiers... see also the Rana Foroohar interview recently, and the Frank Pasquale interview awhile back, all talking about the intersection of Wall Street and Big Tech ("financialization")
	♥ 6:24pm Handy Haversack: Tell the kingfisher, Phillippe!
	♥ 6:24pm Mark Hurst: @Megaroni thanks!
	♥ 6:25pm Phillippe Bastille: @Handy oh, the kingfisher knows. He's like Santa Claus
	6:25pm Russ Never Sleeps: Mark, thank you for acknowledging that this lockdown is difficult, even for someone as level-headed as you. If I may ask, what about it is challenging for you personally? For me, I live alone, so it's the isolation...yesterday was 6 weeks since I had any meaningful contact with anyone.
	6:26pm drgraefy: @Russ you're not alone
	6:26pm mjgoins: analog? :P
	♥ 6:27pm Mark Hurst: @Russ well for one thing, vis-a-vis the show, I don't get to see (in person) my friends at WFMU every Monday afternoon. So I understand the feeling of isolation you're talking about
	♥ 6:28pm Bas NL: Our government is working on an app. Key feature now required is it should be developed Open Source.
	6:28pm dkg: mjgoins: as a contrast to digital. Of course most of that kind of contact-tracing these days will put humans in the position of data entry specialists, and all the "analog" data gathering ends up in some sort of digital database anyway, with all the potential risks there.
	♥ 6:28pm Franco Twinkie: Hi Mark, sometime in the early 1970's, The National Lampoon had their own version of a Sunday newspaper with twisted and absurd takes on the current events of the times. They also had the advertising inserts that float any Sunday newspaper. One thing that was particularly hilarious was the grocery store ads - nothing you would want to put in your mouth for sure. The most perposterous thing of all was Dinner Bleach! I was on the floor - the very idea! But alas, to some people that is apparently a very, very good beverage choice(!?!)
	♥ 6:29pm chris: thanks, Mark... just a suggestion to begin expanding your message every week to include the immorality inherent in the financial system, as they are the enablers of these tech bad actors.
	♥ 6:29pm herb.nyc: --i click on HOW WE REOPEN and it's not working. working for you others?
	6:30pm dkg: Bas NL: i'm a software developer who only works on free/libre open source software. It's definitely important that the tools be auditable and fixable in ways that software freedom allows (see the whitepaper!). But there are many more aspects that need to be considered as well.
	♥ 6:30pm Carmichael: @Franco, I still have that Sunday newspaper parody. Will have to re-visit it.
	♥ 6:30pm chris: re contact tracing - can we even trust the test results used in tracking?
	♥ 6:30pm Franco Twinkie: I wish I did!
	♥ 6:31pm Webhamster Henry: @FrancoTwinkie That was teh Nt LAmp Sunday newspaper, set in the same world as their excellent high school yearbook of 1964. The supermarket ads in the newspaper - printed on cheap newsprint - were by Bruce McCall.
	6:31pm Phillippe Bastille: Russ, that’s gotta be tough. I would be in the same boat without my bride and boomerang young adults. Haven’t had a face to face meeting with a client since last summer, and I’m new to our neighborhood so no close friends nearby. Hang in there.
	6:31pm dkg: chris: if we don't have effective medical testing for COVID-19, then no contact-tracing application will work at all.
	♥ 6:31pm Mark Hurst: @herb since Vi's site seems to be down, I reluctantly point to the video hosted on evil-G's video service - www.youtube.com...
	♥ 6:31pm Fuzzy: @herb.nyc: I ping vihart.com and it responds but it's not serving web pages for some reason.
	♥ 6:31pm Mark Hurst: @dkg agreed!
	♥ 6:32pm ultradamno: Video of Trump supporter Johnny Rotten making the unfortunate comparison between Trump and 'medicine' we need to take www.youtube.com...
	♥ 6:32pm spodiodi: Franco, not 1970, but you may have seen that The Onion ran a related piece a month ago too local.theonion.com...
	♥ 6:32pm Bas NL: @dkg For sure it does not stop data to go to wrong parties once collected.. not sure how they will handle that!
	♥ 6:32pm Carmichael: I kept a lot of NatLamp magazines and associated stuff. I also have the high school yearbook.
	♥ 6:33pm Handy Haversack: But effective medical tests would require some sort of technology ... maybe Google can help with that!
	♥ 6:33pm Franco Twinkie: Bruce McCall, that figures!
	♥ 6:33pm Ignatatus666: Ultradamno John Lyndon or someone using his name. Lyndon is not a Trumper
	♥ 6:33pm Webhamster Henry: @mark we could trace the contacts, and even if it's not used for infections, it could be nice for tracing "terrorists", definition of which is pretty flexible.
	♥ 6:34pm Mark Hurst: @Franco interesting about the NL parody paper. So disappointing, to put it lightly, that the parody has become reality. (See also the movies Wall-E and Idiocracy)
	6:34pm Dave Miss: Bruce McCall called it. Pass the rage-a-hol
	♥ 6:34pm ultradamno: Except, you know, he is.
	6:34pm dkg: @Webmaster Henry: that's a real concern. This is why any such proposal needs to be narrowly tailored to a specific pandemic.
	♥ 6:36pm Mr. Pumpy: I've me headphones on while chopping and rubbing in the kitchen (broccoli and salmon respectively), but I just wanted to pop back on the keyboard and say this is a great interview! And yes, I'm rubbing salmon in the kitchen...it was asking for it.
	♥ 6:37pm Webhamster Henry: @dkg there's a concept in HIPAA and other protocols about information only on a need to know, so you only get the metadata you're allowed to get.
	♥ 6:37pm Handy Haversack: You're definitely getting serious when you break out the meters, @dkg!
	♥ 6:37pm Bas NL: Yep, i get the concerns you just raised in the interview @dkg.
	6:37pm dkg: @Webmaster Henry: those protocols are all policy-enforced, if we can avoid the data even being available to be subject to policy, that can be an even stronger control over the data.
	♥ 6:38pm Mark Hurst: @Pumpy mmm salmon and broccoli
	6:38pm dkg: @Handy: doesn't everyone use meters? Didn't you learn anything in Cecilia's class?
	♥ 6:38pm dale: re bruce mccall - zany afternoons is a great book.
	♥ 6:38pm ultradamno: Trump is just so desperately scared because the economy chugging well was all he had and this is a real spanner in the works. So, yeah, people who would vote for me, why not try spraying Lysol up your nose?
	♥ 6:39pm Handy Haversack: HIPAA also comes out of a historical culture of respecting privacy. Apple and Google ... don't.
	♥ 6:39pm Somm Ben: Along the lines of this conversation right now, two rounds of test have shown that more than 20% of New Yorkers may have already had COVID. Is contact tracing practical in this case?
	♥ 6:40pm Mark Hurst: @Somm Ben I'll defer to @dkg on that one!
	♥ 6:40pm Webhamster Henry: It can be like HP printers and order you a test that'll show up in 10 business days.
	♥ 6:40pm listener james from westwood: Clippy: "It looks like you're attempting to use a global crisis for corporate gain. Would you like the numbers of some pliable members of Congress?"
	♥ 6:40pm Somm Ben: Thanks Mark, great show.
	♥ 6:41pm Mark Hurst: @Webham let's hope the cyan color cartridge doesn't run out after two tests
	6:41pm dkg: @Somm Ben: good question -- if 20% are infectious currently, and no one is trying to be socially distant, i can't imagine that any system like this would be more effective than a public messaging campaign that says "assume you've been exposed"
	♥ 6:41pm Mark Hurst: @James from westwood - don't give Microsoft any ideas!
	6:42pm dkg: but remember that 20% "have already had" doesn't mean 20% "infectious". and if the general public is already being wary and cautious, then contact-tracing might help to flatten a secondary outbreak.
	♥ 6:42pm Webhamster Henry: @Mark it'll be like my Epson "3rd party cartridge not recognized" because there're no standards for different test manufacturers. Just as incompatible as ink carts!
	♥ 6:43pm Somm Ben: Thanks dkg, I see your point about second outbreak.
	6:43pm dkg: but your skepticism is definitely warranted -- please don't let go of it!
	♥ 6:44pm chris: i am not hearing anything that says contact tracing is any better than sheltering in place until every single human can get tested. is that a fair summary?
	♥ 6:44pm Handy Haversack: And a recurring fear around this apartment at least is that these measures would then impose bars to entry to services -- food stores, transport, jobs, whatever -- where you have to demonstrate a "safe" rating on a smartphone to gain access. With "safe" possibly being totally meaningless. And with those of us who have already made sure not to allow smartphones in our lives possibly prevented from these basic services because we can't demonstrate our adherence to a standard we can't even access. IOW: well, I never intended to shop at Whole Foods anyway.
	♥ 6:44pm queems: i made the post 9/11 comparison the other day to someone when talking about this
	6:44pm dkg: @chris: not everyone can afford to shelter in place, though.
	♥ 6:44pm Somm Ben: Richard Reid
	♥ 6:45pm Webhamster Henry: The proximity networking is also used by peer-to-peer networking and people I know at LoudHailer are touting their peer-to-peer software as a contact tracing tech.
	♥ 6:45pm Mark Hurst: Precedent, and the shoe bomber, also came up in my interview with Chris Gilliard on April 6: www.wfmu.org...
	6:46pm drgraefy: waffle house!! dkg just outed himself as an Atlantan.
	♥ 6:46pm Somm Ben: How about the potential for someone hacking this network?
	♥ 6:46pm Handy Haversack: Scattered, smothered, and covered!
	6:46pm David in London: We’re going to end up like the subterranean humans worshipping the bomb at the end of Beneath the Planet is the Apes.
	♥ 6:46pm ultradamno: Mayor of Waffle House. Those were the days.
	♥ 6:46pm Carmichael: Yes, Chris! Newsom is working toward 60,000 tests a day. What happens when everyone is tested?
	6:46pm dkg: @Handy: right, that kind of coercion is really insidious, and we need to be clear that it's not acceptable. These systems need to be truly voluntary.
	♥ 6:46pm spodiodi: waffle house has a farther reach than ATL
	♥ 6:46pm Handy Haversack: (It's because mayor of Waffle House sounds so cool.)
	♥ 6:47pm Handy Haversack: @dkg, aaahhhh, thanks for saying this out loud! Brother!
	♥ 6:47pm Carmichael: @David, I was thinking more along the lines of THX-1138.
	♥ 6:47pm Ken From Hyde Park: Just issue everyone a wristband that buzzes of you come too close to another person - www.thedrive.com...
	♥ 6:48pm chris: Carm, we have science, most importantly. and we have existing privacy laws to protect us.
	♥ 6:48pm Somm Ben: Props on the no cell phone carrying. Only met a few people like that.
	♥ 6:48pm spodiodi: handy & dkg -- i feel same about not having a phone, but recently caved (again) and bought another year of service. mostly i kept it for the phone so family could reach me
	♥ 6:48pm Carmichael: @Chris, and we have Clorox ...
	6:48pm drgraefy: waiting for Handy to chime in...
	♥ 6:48pm ultradamno: @handy Plus, all the syrup legislation you could pass or veto...the POWER
	6:49pm Dean: Network effect: a neutral-sounding phenomenon that proponents (of phones, etc.) use to impose those social pressures.
	6:50pm dkg: @sodipodi, that's exactly what i'm saying -- everyone needs to stay connected to their family, and if you can't do that without one of these devices, it's understandable to have one. but what a weird tradeoff that we've made in our society: that to stay connected to your family and friends many people need to carry a device that is controlled by a major corporation :(
	♥ 6:50pm Mark Hurst: "No shirt, no shoes, no app, no service. Welcome to Amazon Grocery!"
	♥ 6:50pm spodiodi: chirs @ 6:29 finance + tech was a disaster that's never getting undone. heavens help us.
	♥ 6:50pm Handy Haversack: "Cashless" is a great way to eliminate employees, too.
	6:51pm drgraefy: Our society makes many many decisions to let corporations control things. it's not good. using a cell phone is not the only one, or even the worst.
	6:51pm dkg: @Handy -- yep, it is definitely an anti-labor move.
	♥ 6:51pm Carmichael: I'm getting rid of ALL my credit cards. And I use cash a lot. My small and futile way of sticking it to the man.
	♥ 6:52pm Handy Haversack: @dkg, also, Bagpipe says "grunt" -- and sends his love.
	♥ 6:52pm Webhamster Henry: Go for local currencies.
	♥ 6:52pm spodiodi: the upside of my long paranoid tech existence is that more and more people are becoming aware of the nefarious nature. thank you MArk and dkg
	♥ 6:52pm Mark Hurst: @spodiodi thanks - awareness is the first task!
	♥ 6:53pm chresti: Thanks Mark!
	♥ 6:53pm chris: thanks for the convo, Mark and dkg.
	♥ 6:53pm melinda: I worry that the political polarization of reactions to the pandemic will lead to an unquestioning assumption that tech-assisted contact tracing is something all good and responsible people should submit to.
	♥ 6:53pm ultradamno: ...or, because you can't get a credit card, you're pushed to options like reloadable debit cards that leech more money from you in surcharges.
	6:53pm drgraefy: thanks dkg. great interview
	♥ 6:53pm Handy Haversack: Thanks, Mark and dkg! This was a great segment. Hugely important material to put in public discussion! Thanks so much to you and the Skeletons!
	♥ 6:53pm Bas NL: Thanks @dkg. Very informative. And thanks again Mark!
	6:53pm dkg: NY and NJ were both banning cashless business last i checked. I don't know how COVID-19 will affect those laws.
	♥ 6:53pm Mark Hurst: Thanks again to @dkg! And to @Handy Haversack for the intro!
	♥ 6:54pm Franco Twinkie: Oh boy, are we in trouble.
	♥ 6:54pm Webhamster Henry: Thanks Mark! Hear ya next week!
	♥ 6:55pm Handy Haversack: Kate's response to that pledge sums it up neatly: "Uh huh."
	♥ 6:55pm queems: thanks mark & all!
	♥ 6:55pm coelacanth∅: Thanks Mark
	6:55pm Dean: Porno for Pyros?
	♥ 6:56pm ultradamno: Is that a Vermeer onion, so nice it makes you cry?
	♥ 6:56pm Mark Hurst: @Dean you got it
	♥ 6:56pm Stillwell Coney Islander: Thank you Mark! Thanks Handy Haversack!
	6:56pm dkg: we're gonna need to hold them to that promise of making it temporary.
	♥ 6:56pm Webhamster Henry: As an Apple Dev, All it'll take is a few iOS upgrades to make the contact tracking software go obsolete!
	6:56pm David in London: Really good, albeit dispiriting, show Mark.
	♥ 6:56pm listener 126464: it's fun getting into trouble
	♥ 6:56pm listener james from westwood: Thanks, Mark!
	♥ 6:56pm Corey: Thanks Mark for another informative show. Be well.
	♥ 6:56pm Mark Hurst: I also thought this song was apropos to tonight's interview. Let's try not to become pets...
	♥ 6:56pm listener 126464: Thanks Mark, guest, crew
	♥ 6:57pm spodiodi: nice closing song, Mark
	♥ 6:57pm Listener Robert: Mr. Hurst, get up to date: pledge.wfmu.org...
	6:57pm dkg: thanks for the show, Mark! thanks everyone for the conversation!
	♥ 6:57pm Mark Hurst: @Corey thanks, you too
	♥ 6:57pm Mark Hurst: @Robert oops, thanks for the correction
	♥ 6:57pm spodiodi: come on, Martians!
	♥ 6:57pm Handy Haversack: @dkg: I can just imagine how fast that pledge evaporates once someone offers to monetize it. As Mark always reminds us, the SV business model is profit above all -- sell (out) anything and anyone to get there.
	♥ 6:57pm Ken From Hyde Park: Thanks, Mark & dkg. There should be a Groundhog Day bit that predicts how long the lockdown will last.
	♥ 6:57pm ultradamno: Trump sandwich twitter.com...
	♥ 6:58pm ultradamno: I assume it has a core of excrement.
	♥ 6:58pm Listener Robert: And that means we're "owed" a certain naked photo.
	♥ 6:58pm Mark Hurst: @dkg thanks so much!
	6:58pm dkg: yep, which means we need auditing and reviews and advocacy and activism.
	♥ 6:58pm Mark Hurst: @Robert maybe subconsciously I was hoping to avoid that
	♥ 6:58pm spodiodi: never eating ham again, ultramon
	♥ 6:59pm Handy Haversack: Thanks for what you do on those lines, @dkg! And remember you have to help me set up a computer once we're allowed to be in an apt. as small as mine again!
	♥ 6:59pm Bas NL: Woof! Moo!
	♥ 6:59pm Mark Hurst: Bye, everyone, stay safe & have a good week!
	♥ 7:00pm Listener Robert: And we got to the goal sooner than last year!
	♥ 7:00pm Bas NL: Goal! :D

Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from April 27, 2020

Upcoming events:

Listener comments!

(C) 2021 WFMU. Generated by KenzoDB, (C) 2000-2021 Ken Garson