Favoriting Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from February 4, 2019 Favoriting

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Favoriting February 4, 2019: Prof. Susan Crawford, author, "Fiber"

Listen to this show: Pop-up listen Pop-up player!

This week: Susan Crawford, Harvard Law School professor and author, Fiber: The Coming Tech Revolution and Why American Might Miss It

Links to Susan Crawford:

• On Twitter: @scrawford

Fiber (book page at Yale University Press)

Bio at Harvard Law School

muninetworks.org - Susan specifically pointed to this site as a good resource (all about community networks). See also their review of Susan's book: "Fiber" Freshens the Soul: Susan Crawford's New Book Delivers More Than Data.

It's Now Clear None of the Supposed Benefits of Killing Net Neutrality Are Real (Motherboard, Jan 24): "Network investment is down, layoffs abound, and networks are falling apart. This isn’t the glorious future [FCC Chairman] Ajit Pai promised."

Recent Tech News

First up, regarding my Wake & Bake segment this morning on Facebook's "friendly fraud"...

From Wake & Bake with Clay Pigeon today, Feb 4, 2019 (see playlist)

Apple has disabled group FaceTime calls after it was humiliated on Data Privacy Day by a bug that lets people listen in on you (Jan 29)

Apple blocks Facebook's developer certificate (Jan 30) when it found Facebook to be surveilling users via an iPhone app ... turns out Google was doing something similar (Jan 30)

...all of which led Kevin Roose to write (NYT Jan 30): Maybe Only Tim Cook Can Fix Facebook’s Privacy Problem.

So... a Great Powers negotiation. Where are the elected officials? The citizens? Anyone with any role in a democratic process?

Jan 30 City Council Finance Committee hearing with Amazon, featuring speaker Corey Johnson (check around 1:05:00 mark or so)

Senate Names Critic of Amazon Deal to Key Board (With Veto Power) (NYT, today, Feb 4): "an opponent of the Amazon deal has been selected for a spot on a little-known state board that the governor has said will have to decide on the development plan for Amazon, and could veto it completely. On Monday, the new Democratic majority in the State Senate chose one of the most vocal critics of the Amazon deal, Senator Michael Gianaris of Queens, to represent them as one of three voting members of the Public Authorities Control Board. Any voting member of the board has the power to block projects that come before it."

- - -

PODCAST: Subscribe to the Techtonic podcast

Artist Track Album Label Images Approx. start time
  Harvard Law School professor Susan Crawford, author of the new book "Fiber," speaks with Mark Hurst about why Internet access is so awful in the US, and how places like Norway, South Korea, and Singapore enjoy low-cost, super-high-speed Internet access via fiber optic cables.
Tomaš Dvořák  Game Boy Tune   Favoriting Machinarium Soundtrack  No label 
  Mark's intro      
  Interview with Susan Crawford      
0:23:19 (Pop-up)
  Your calls and comments 201-536-9368      
0:47:06 (Pop-up)

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Listener comments!

Avatar 🤖 6:00pm Bas NL:

Mark! T'oids!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:00pm ultradamno:

Hello Mark, Techardigrades!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:00pm Webhamster Henry:

Hi T'heck T'honick listeners!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:00pm annie:

Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:01pm queems:

Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:01pm dale:

herro dere.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:01pm Ike:

Greetings, humans!
Avatar 6:01pm Beast of Boonton:

Greetings Techniods!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:01pm brycepunk1:

Good evening. So happy to catch your show tonight.
Avatar 6:01pm TDK60:

Hey Mark! This morning DJ Clay Pigeon said you could throw his Box of Pain if you're still frustrated with Farcebook. It's outside the door of Studio B.
  6:01pm melinda:

Hello Mark and Techtons!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:02pm Ken From Hyde Park:

Techtonic greetings!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:03pm listener james from westwood:

Evening, Mark and all!!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:03pm queems:

i'm just mad that i have to pay a shit ton of money for internet that kind of sucks
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:03pm Rich in Washington:

Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:03pm herb.nyc:

hi all. mark said "not totally satisfied". will show end with the replacements' "unsatisfied"?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:03pm ultradamno:

From here to Xfinity (which means it's a crapshoot if it gets there)
  6:03pm melinda:

@queems me too.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:04pm Rich in Washington:

I'm frustrated that 50 feet lies between my copper line ADSL hookup and a fiber node at the end of my driveway.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:05pm Folsom:

Just found a GFBR box by my townhouse, too bad Google won't finish the fiber build out.
  6:05pm melinda:

When I last visited my sister her neighborhood was getting fiber installed....by Google.
  6:05pm Dave Miss:

Hello! Please bring up the block chain debacle of the dude that died with all the passwords for his clients
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:05pm Rich in Washington:

I love those photos of old phone/electrical lines. They're insane.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:05pm queems:

i have fios but they just keep raising the price
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:06pm annie:

very grateful to have a simple internet connection through a small local company, Skyrunner. so small only certain parts of asheville can get it. 25 month
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:06pm Webhamster Henry:

Back in the early 90s, when bandwidth was precious, there was an idea a friend of mine was promoting called "Film Over Fiber" so that super16 film rushes would get digitized and sent across the country to Hollywood or wherever via fiber.
  6:06pm melinda:

@Dave oh no.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:08pm Rich in Washington:

Mark, on the recent-ish show where you talked a lot about Google, my android phone, sitting near the speaker, suddenly woke up Google Assistant, thinking you'd said OK Google. It was a creepy meta moment.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:08pm Webhamster Henry:

Apple has disabled the multi-user Facetime until the fix is in, probably in the OS update that's on its way this week.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:08pm Ike:

Ironically, Spectrum (formerly Slime Warner) used to suck so bad that NY forced them to offer a budget option for $14.99/mo. They don't advertise it, so you have to know about it and ask for it. It's not terrible! I mean, for that price, it's passable enough to stream Netflix 90% of the time. Occasionally the first few seconds of a stream are blurry, but it usually clears up quickly. Weirdly, this means that for people on a strict budget, Spectrum is now far better than Optimum, FiOS, or other providers that charge much, much more (for admittedly much better service).
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:09pm LCBD:

Hi Mark, I absolutely love your segment on Wake and Bake. So happy I finally remembered to tune in to your show.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:09pm queems:

hi @lcbd!!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:10pm dale:

good price annie - if i asked for naked dsl from my carrier i'm sure it would be much more.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:11pm herb.nyc:

partly because mark has itemized so many of facebook's faults (I just used a euphemism), I wrote a letter to president of ny public library that the computers in their branches should have facebook *blocked*. he wrote me back, said "sure". NOT.
  6:11pm Sam:

Forget apologizing, isn’t this spying completely illegal?? How about a ginormous class action lawsuit or maybe even criminal charges?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:11pm Webhamster Henry:

Apple is very strict - sometimes the reviewers pick things up and sometimes not. But Enterprise apps are not reviewed by Apple , and only (supposed to be) distributed within companies. Apple withdrew the Enterprise certificate, not the public cert. Don't confuse the two.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:12pm listener james from westwood:

"It's an old Cupertino message. It means your app sleeps with the fishes."
  6:13pm doug:

Can you do an entire show in that frat boy voice?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:14pm Smokestack:

Any bets on how long before Facebook goes belly up?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:15pm Webhamster Henry:

If you don't stick your app in the app store, it can do a lot of things (but not access APIs that are hidden and unlinkable like Mach ports).
There's a big document on what Apple doesn't allow in an App Store App.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:15pm LCBD:

Hi queens!! So nice to see you again today!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:16pm LCBD:

Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:17pm herb.nyc:

good point about our political people being quiet about all this - usually chuck schumer is quick to (want to) protect us. chuck, help us.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:17pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63:

I think it comes down to all these Interwebz Monopolies are gawdman Public Utilities
- & there's no denying it.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:17pm listener james from westwood:

Tim Cook and a bunch of other tech barons sat down with 45 early in his presidency. They're all of them compromised.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:17pm Webhamster Henry:

Details on the FB app from the EFF:
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:18pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63:

...& they won't even admit the Interweb is one...
  6:19pm liXiviated life:

Not even our elected officials answer to us.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:19pm Ken From Hyde Park:

The Box of Pain is going to end up in the basement at this rate!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:19pm annie:

i'd love to clicky-star that last thing you said mark...
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:20pm Webhamster Henry:

We're partying like it's 1899.
  6:21pm Rory:

Power begets power
  6:21pm Sam:

Cuomo should have been removed from office just for saying that
Avatar 6:22pm TDK60:

Cuomo won't have to live in the neighborhood where Amazon moves in.
  6:22pm liXiviated life:

Mark I’m with you on this brother. However, dissent is the easy part.
What are the alternatives?
Avatar 6:23pm Linda Lee:

this man is on it.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:24pm Smokestack:

Ouch, burn
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:24pm queems:

damnnnnnn cory
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:24pm dale:

Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:24pm northguineahills:

I need a gin and tech-tonic....
Avatar 6:24pm TDK60:

Lix. Life: well, it looks like his guest tonight is gonna talk about community broadband...
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:24pm Webhamster Henry:

Yeah, smack 'em down!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:24pm LCBD:

Thank you for playing this! Too right, LL and queems!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:25pm northguineahills:

Cuomo, the softer face of his asshole father....
  6:25pm liXiviated life:

Ok, I tuned in late.
I’ll keep listening.
  6:26pm david:

dont even get into the internet service providers, or the monopolisation of the cell phone industry
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:26pm Ike:

As a Democrat, I declare that Gov. "Amazon" Cuomo is quite possibly the worst Democrat in the country. He's certainly the worst Dem governor. He's a corrupt creep, but he hides it well. He's a centrist who didn't want to be faced w/progressive legislation but also didn't want to openly veto it, so he maneuvered carefully behind the scenes for many years for Republicans and fake Dem traitors (the IDC) to keep control of the state Senate. Finally in 2018 we weren't having it any more and voted those bastards out and now Andy is FORCED to pass progressive legislation. Don't think for a second that he likes it!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:28pm chris:

hi, Mark and folks. lets make 2019 the year of data regulation in the US. take back the power over our own info. talk to your reps.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:30pm northguineahills:

what Ike said, but he presents his scheisse, better then his father, so, the peeps digest it more easier... (the neu-blau-hunde)
  6:31pm BBK:

Actually have gigabit service here in Jacksonville, FL (up and down)$85 a month with Fiber to the house but stuck on Comcast at the office $99 for 50Mbps/10Mbps
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:31pm dale:

when i did marketing for verizon 15 years ago they were beginning to replace copper with fios at a rate of 5% of their infrastructure per year. so 20 years to go all fiber optic. don't know where that went.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:32pm Folsom:

A bad thing about FIOS or ATT fiber is that is passively split, I think up to 32 times. Worst case you can get 2G/32 which is still pretty good.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:33pm dale:

the photo at left is just amazing. edison days?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:33pm Smokestack:

I was recently finally able to drop CenturyLink, where I was getting an abysmal 12 Mb connection for $62/month...
Avatar 🤖 6:34pm Bas NL:

WFMU 128kbps.. who needs fiber?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:35pm northguineahills:

@BBK: Used to live in J-ville. I now have Comcast for a Gig at $65/mo, but my old office had ATT for $99/mo and it never was close to 1G (the commercial Comcast was even worse.) (In Gainesville).
  6:35pm carrots:

hey can anyone tell the name of a good secure email company?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:36pm Webhamster Henry:

Read about the electricity history in the rural (Texan) world as part of Robert Caro's LBJ Bio "The Path To Power".
Avatar 6:37pm Linda Lee:

"The Path To Power" ~ clever!
  6:37pm JakeGould:

Internet connectivity haves and have-nots even exist with free Wi-Fi things like LinkNYC. Go to Park Slope and the kiosks there are really fast; stunningly so.

Then go to some of the more non-entitled locations of LinkNYC and guess what? Crappy service.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:38pm Mark Hurst:

Hi everyone, thanks for this excellent discussion tonight.

@Carrots, try protonmail.com
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:38pm Webhamster Henry:

I get about 230Mb/s download for $60 (Spectrum)
  6:38pm larry of lackawack:

Tuxedo Park, NY does NOT have verizon fios. Go figure.
Avatar 6:39pm glenn:

oh, what a difference since the hydro came. www.youtube.com...
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:39pm Webhamster Henry:

But If I had similar upload speed (which is about 15Mb/s), I'd run my own streaming servers etc.
  6:40pm carrots:

Maarrk!! Thanks bud!! Great Show!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:40pm Ken From Hyde Park:

In this area, I have Optimum (Altice), which offers TV/phone/internet (60Mb/s) for a tidy $190 a month.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:40pm dale:

right now my download speed is 3.23 mbps and my upload is .36 mbps accordking to ookla. does that suck or blow?
  6:40pm weekly_listener:

Hey Mark!
Thanks for the show and detailed show notes.

@techtons / Got any app recommendations?
  6:40pm JakeGould:

I have the Spectrum $14.99 plan and I am fine with it. Call me old fashioned but I don’t stream… I download!
Avatar 6:41pm Linda Lee:

my catskills valley in ulster county has about %5 0f households connected with anything. TWC was contracted to connect everyone & received a state grant for it. they bailed. so there's nothing. zero.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:41pm Mark Hurst:

@dale, I think the technical term for those speeds is "awful"

@carrots, thanks!

@LCBD, thanks for tuning in from listening this morning!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:41pm northguineahills:

@dale: considering sucking is the phenomena of air moving from a higher pressure to a lower pressure, I'd say it blows...
  6:42pm JakeGould:

@Ken: $190 per month is really pricey even for all you are getting. That should be $80 a month. But maybe it’s because you are up near Hyde Park.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:42pm Webhamster Henry:

@LindaLee and Spectrum is supposed to get kicked out for not wiring up rural NY the way they were supposed to.
  6:42pm larry of lackawack:

Linda Lee! My town supervisor claimed Spectrum wired his town for free! WRONG The cable came from Sullivan cty.
Avatar 6:43pm Linda Lee:

good. and again, my neighbors will be left with nothing.
  6:43pm JakeGould:

I do have unlimited data on my iPhone with Sprint so that fills the gap for me. All for $100 a month!
Avatar 🤖 6:43pm Bas NL:

In my work I once got a quote for a 35 miles fiber link to be made.. it was estimated at 18 million euros.. 20 million $'s.. The guy offering said i'd make many friends in the village i wanted to reach ..
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:43pm northguineahills:

@LL: My friend's cabin (in the middle of nowhere, no paved roads), still uses satellite internet on the border of Greene and Albany Counties.
  6:44pm Dr. Peter:

Great interview!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:44pm Webhamster Henry:

Zephyr Teachout has rural broadband as one of her campaign promises (back two NY19 elections ago)
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:44pm northguineahills:

wait, in the last two years, phone internet was also available....
Avatar 6:44pm Linda Lee:

our folks have tried satellite, but its very prohibitive cost-wise for rural famliies & their service compared to dial-up.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:44pm Mark Hurst:

@Dr. Peter, thanks!

@Bas, that seems a bit steep of a price in order to make new friends :)
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:45pm dale:

dsl is my only option without getting cable TV which i refuse to do. antenna on the roof brings in more junk than i can deal with.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:45pm Mark Hurst:

@Linda Lee, Susan's book mentions that situation exactly - rural families being left behind and having to use spotty, slow satellite access
Avatar 6:45pm Linda Lee:

phone internet? via landline? 'cost that's what they got. there's no cell service.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:46pm Ike:

Yeah, I'm still wondering if Spectrum/Slime Warner will *actually* get kicked out of NY state for its bad behavior. We'll see!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:46pm Webhamster Henry:

Mark can do a show on peer-to-peer at some point.
Avatar 6:46pm Linda Lee:

there are sub-saharan villages with better access than we have, 100 miles from nyc.
Avatar 6:47pm Linda Lee:

Henry, that would be a great idea.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:47pm Webhamster Henry:

Fiber was laid down in the old Penn Central right-of-way.
  6:47pm larry of lackawack:

Wifi hotspot from walmart $10/gig. sucks.

Where are all those satellites?
Avatar 🤖 6:48pm Bas NL:

I think the going rate for satellite internet is about $1000/GByte.
  6:49pm JakeGould:

@Ike: To be fair, with Spectrum I don’t have to wait for a tech or go to their offices near Greenwood Cemetery to connect a new device directly to my modem. Time Warner were hardcore about MAC address locking their devices; thus I avoided W-Fi in my apartment until the last year. Can’”t take days off from work to register a stupid MAC address.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:49pm northguineahills:

@LL: actually, yes, cell service. It was only in 2016 that it worked. No landline or electricity there. His electricity is all from photovoltaic shingles on the roof.
  6:49pm Sam:

We should all just give up on the internet and cancel our service. It was a cool experiment, I guess, but it’s just not worth the trouble anymore. Let’s go back to newspapers, video stores and open mics and stuff like that. We were perfectly fine before the internet.
  6:50pm BBK:

@northguineahills will have to look at comcast 1G never heard it offered here for business service
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:50pm Smokestack:

Shout out to Mozilla (they're not a terrible company, right?). They made a huge grant to my city last year to lay the first fiber cable through downtown.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:50pm northguineahills:

@Bas: The guy works from home, and he thinks it's worth it for the location.
Avatar 6:50pm Linda Lee:

frankly i'm seeing the issue as just another manifestation of wealth disaparity. another class issue inherent in our 'classless society'..
Avatar 6:50pm TDK60:

couldn't this work via a public utility?; it could be decentralized in local regional/city units.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:50pm herb.nyc:

sam's comment reminded me of what I was telling people at work, in the early 2000s. that "computers are just a fad".
Avatar 6:51pm Linda Lee:

that's wealth disparity. i can indeed spell.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:51pm Rich in Washington:

@herb.nyc: I work with people who still think like that...
  6:52pm Dave Miss:

What happened to all the fiber that QUALCOMM layed in the early 2000‘s?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:52pm northguineahills:

@BBK: Comcast delivery for business doesn't deliver as advertised. It's sad that my residential internet was better then at my old small business.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:52pm Rich in Washington:

I think Sam's being slightly facetious, but I think I understand what he means. The internet's been like this weird 'monkey's paw' type wish come true.
  6:53pm BBK:

A great book to read on telco history is "The Master Switch: The Rise and Fall of Information Empires" by Tim Wu
  6:53pm doug:

I was (half) kidding
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:53pm dale:

i like this story:

"Bitcoin investors may be out $190 million after the only guy with the password dies, firm says"

Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:53pm listener james from westwood:

We are not always fortunate in our senatorial Dem leaders.
  6:53pm larry of lackawack:

BTW NYCDEP hung fiber to all their Catskill reservoirs which is a "private" line. No one else can use it.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:53pm chris:

dang, missed the interview. was the way Stockholm paid for the fiber discussed? i believe it was a short term tax that ended up getting fully paid back to the tax payers.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:54pm dale:

schumer has never seen a camera he hasn't tried to get in front of.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:54pm queems:

oh hey mark
Avatar 6:54pm Linda Lee:

Chuck's outlived his actual usefulness by far.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:55pm queems:

i tried to cancel my fios once because i was angry at them for raising the price and they were like "LOL OK BYE" and didn't even flinch
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:55pm herb.nyc:

back to sen Schumer - his wife was a big transportation official in nyc, years ago. so he didn't encourage legislation that woulda made the mrs. do things she no wanna do.
  6:55pm Sam:

I’m not being facetious in the least. I think it’s actually really terrifying that people assume you must be joking when you say life was better before the internet.
  6:55pm larry of lackawack:

Schmuck thinks he saved ny economy with maple syrup.
  6:56pm JakeGould:

@Dale: I might have my issues with you, but that story about that guy dying and the password and the Bitcoin? PERFECT!!!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:56pm melinda:

@BBK I saw a good interview with him on Youtube.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:56pm melinda:

I don't trust blockchain evangelism.
  6:57pm larry of lackawack:

NYC declared VZ would pass every street. VZ did. On one side of the street. Not the other.
  6:58pm liXiviated life:

Luddite Life has its appeal
Avatar 6:59pm Linda Lee:

Sam, the same people laugh when you say New York was a better place to live before Giuliani.
Avatar 6:59pm TDK60:

Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:59pm melinda:

Avatar 6:59pm Jeff Moore:

While it is very much true that the overall state of access to good-quality broadband in the US is dismal... our Jersey City home is finally actually in a pretty nice state with respect to connectivity, and believe it or not it's via "good" ol' Verizon.

Finally got their "Gigabit" (reliably 600-700Mb both ways) service installed, and in addition to the headline bandwidth spec, I was pleased and surprised to see that ping time between our house and WFMU's primary stream server relay2.wfmu.org went from a little under 20ms (with a fair bit of fluctuation) to fairly tightly within the 3-4ms (!) range.

Not sure how much of that is related to some change in the service and how much is related to no longer trying to squeeze bits through the coax MOCA sphincter.
  6:59pm mkultr4:

doing God's work
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:59pm dale:

jake - we're all entitled to opinions. i'm not always right or sensitive i know for sure.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:59pm listener james from westwood:

Thanks, Mark!
  6:59pm liXiviated life:

Excellent show tonight mark
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:59pm Webhamster Henry:

Someone should sponsor the box of pain for the Marathon.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:59pm Rich in Washington:

Thanks, Mark!
Avatar 🤖 6:59pm Bas NL:

Thanks Mark! Nice box work!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:00pm dale:

i took a tour of the verizon midtown building where ALL the wires from every customer in that area came in. i thought 'man a guy with a chainsaw could do some serious damage!'
Avatar 7:01pm Linda Lee:

.. a guy with a chainsaw or a squirrel.
Avatar 7:02pm Jeff Moore:

Beware of a guy with a squirrel.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:02pm Mark Hurst:

Thanks, everyone! Great discussion. Have a great week.
Avatar 7:03pm Linda Lee:

.. or a squirrel with a chainsaw. heaven help us.
  7:03pm JakeGould:

Raccoons too. They destroy things.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:05pm Webhamster Henry:

Hear ya next week!
Avatar 7:06pm Linda Lee:

i've got a couple living in my bedroom ceiling as we speak. so far so good.
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