Favoriting Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from December 5, 2022 Favoriting

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Conversations with creators and thinkers who are charting the way forward in a tech-saturated society. Tech, community, video games, and whatever else is next.

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Favoriting December 5, 2022: On game design: Eric Zimmerman, author, "The Rules We Break"

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Today: On game design – Eric Zimmerman, author, “The Rules We Break”

The Rules We Break: Lessons in Play, Thinking, and Design, by Eric Zimmerman, published by Princeton Architectural Press. A wide range of entertaining, thought-provoking games, exercises, and short essays. . . . [the] real-world exercises are designed to be played on tabletops, as playground-style physical games, and via social interactions with others in person or online.”

theruleswebreak.com, book site: “The Rules We Break is a design book that asks you to play. It is not a book of information to learn or facts to absorb. It is a handbook for doing.”

ericzimmerman.com, Eric’s site: “I design videogames, tabletop games, and large-scale game installations. I also teach at the NYU game center, write about game design, and work with amazing people like Local No. 12 and the Institute of Play.”

Eric's games include The Metagame (featured on Oct 9, 2017, the fifth TT episode), Diner Dash, Blix, Sissyfight 2000, and Waiting Rooms (with Nathalie Pozzi).

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Artist Track Images Approx. start time
  Eric Zimmerman, game designer and author, "The Rules We Break"
Tomaš Dvořák  Game Boy Tune   Favoriting
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  Mark's intro  
Favoriting
 
  Interview with Eric Zimmerman  
Favoriting
0:05:51 (MP3 | Pop-up)
Pink Tiles  Internet   Favoriting
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0:55:55 (MP3 | Pop-up)


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Listener comments!

Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 5:59pm
Handy Haversack:

Hey, Mark, Eric, Techyon Particulates.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:01pm
DanFA:

Hi Mark.
  6:02pm
Rolando:

Greetings All.
Avatar 🤖 6:03pm
Bas NL:

Hi Mark! Markonists!
  6:03pm
wendy del formaggio:

Oh hello! Listening live while I cook red beans and rice, and potato salad. Hooray!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:03pm
chresti:

Hi Mark and techdoom!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:04pm
herb.nyc:

hola, did olivia say there is a live guest today? hope so; the dead ones were kinda stiff.

"the rules we break" - i saw a DISRUPT THINGS ad on subway, for DEEL. for what the hell is a deel?
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:05pm
Ken From Hyde Park:

Hello, Mark and rulebreakers!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:05pm
DanFA:

@Handy, can I be on your team?
  6:05pm
Rolando:

Awesome, he was on Douglass Rushkoff a short while ago too. Mark always finds the good ones first!
Avatar 6:05pm
HyperDose:

haha that meme is amazing
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:05pm
Handy Haversack:

I like contexts where "gaming" and "gamer" don't necessarily imply video games.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:06pm
shumyum:

Yes! Games are for the tabletop!
  6:07pm
chresti:

Is Eric related to bob?
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:08pm
Ken From Hyde Park:

2023: Pandemic II! Yikes!
  6:09pm
chresti:

Holiday party at work was cancelled due to Covid outbreak
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:09pm
Handy Haversack:

There's a Game Lab in Brooklyn where my buddy's kids play D&D after school.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:09pm
Folsom:

Let's break out some Avalon Hill games.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:10pm
Handy Haversack:

Solidarity!

Folsom, I can see Twixt from where I'm sitting.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:10pm
Elena:

Solidarity with the New School strike, yes!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:11pm
Handy Haversack:

Gonna be listening while chopping stuff. Into it!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:11pm
Greg from ZONE 5:

Evening, Mark & all!
  6:11pm
yippie:

I once made a game where you answer questions about Russian history and then you get bonus points for throwing a bean bag through Rasputin's eyes on this cardboard cutout
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:13pm
Mark Hurst:

Hi all, thanks for joining!
  6:13pm
chresti:

Horseplay
Avatar 6:13pm
HyperDose:

Greg! Stoked for your upcoming Reggae Schoolroom fill-in
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:14pm
Mark Hurst:

Keep an eye on the playlist for an opportunity to participate in the show in a little bit...
  6:14pm
castor:

Hey all!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:14pm
Mark Hurst:

(Well, an eye on the comment board right here.)
  6:15pm
Sam:

I’m a ludic Luddite.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:15pm
Webhamster Henry:

I used to be a part of the non competitive game community. Check out those games: www.deepfun.com
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:15pm
shumyum:

Name my son Ludo because I love games. Now he does too
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:15pm
Handy Haversack:

Taking a break here to say: "Thank you, E. Gary Gygax."
  6:16pm
yippie:

even Gilgamesh played a game called pukku
  6:17pm
wind:

Hey Mark! And all tech lovers 😎
  6:18pm
castor:

An old friend of mine made an amazing board game years ago called "Revolution! The Game of Social Upheaval" in which every player was a political faction having to both work with each other to overthrow The State (the game master) but also vying to be the winning faction in the ensuing power vacuum. It was a whole lot of fun and definitely great for building strategizing skills.
  6:20pm
Glistener MW:

the Luddites would’ve REALLY hated the Lucasarts game “Loom”!
Avatar 🤖 6:21pm
Bas NL:

Homo Ludens en.wikipedia.org...
  6:22pm
Gina:

I was a game inventor for Milton Bradley and Hasbro in the 90s. Can’t wait to read your book.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:23pm
shumyum:

Great book. Jung wrote about the importance of play at the same time
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:25pm
Blobs:

Respect for knishes
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:26pm
Deano de los Muertos:

@Gina work on anything we would know?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:26pm
Webhamster Henry:

You should try playing this game with the new chatbot chatGPT: chat.openai.com...
  6:26pm
Sam:

I love a knish with mustard all over it.
  6:26pm
wind:

What an interesting occupation Gina! What college degree gets you that job? Lol
  6:27pm
Gina:

My big hit was a game for pre schoolers called “Chicken Limbo”. Not my best invention but the one that sold
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:27pm
shumyum:

Hasbro made Heroscape in the '90s, right? A great one!
  6:28pm
Gina:

I studied Industrial Design at Art School. Found my way into a job at Fisher Price and then went Indy after 4 years
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:28pm
Deano de los Muertos:

I definitely remember chicken limbo commercials, cool!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:28pm
Webhamster Henry:

My son is his own game company, writing games that are visual novels, so not about social interaction, but also not about killing the right beings either.
  6:29pm
castor:

@Gina I remember Chicken Limbo! Can't remember if I played it as a kid but def remember the commercials.
  6:30pm
Gina:

It was re released years later and recalled because they tried to cut corners in design
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:31pm
Webhamster Henry:

The cancel button usually says "OK, maybe later..."
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:31pm
Handy Haversack:

Wow, do I have Thoughts!

But a break from the carrots to say that after 40 years of trying to be good at running (designing) D&D-like games, it was the embrace of friction and letting it lead to discovery and ludic joy that really began to make it all work for me -- which I find to be the ethos of the DIY TTRPG sphere and totally anathema to currently in-print corporate D&D.

Friction. Therein lies the rub!
  6:31pm
chresti:

A minefield of click bait
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:31pm
shumyum:

Even beyond computer games, collectible card games are also quite manipulative: Pokemon and then Magic. Heartbreaking to see kids who would like more interesting games get sucked into them
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:33pm
Handy Haversack:

YES! This! Taking the surface of games and leaving the soul of play behind. Oh, well said. Stripmining the surface of games: corporate gamethink defined!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:34pm
Melon:

As someone who studied game design and art, it took me 5 years to figure this stuff out - its great to hear it so clearly spoken!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:36pm
Ken From Hyde Park:

Han Solo made the Kessel Run in 12 parsecs. Talk about a rule breaker!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:37pm
Folsom:

I remember back in the day playing Code Name: Sector, interesting old cold war type of game
  6:37pm
Jackie G:

Crazy Eights is a fun game. No real winners or losers, it's just fun.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:37pm
shumyum:

Chewie also cheats
  6:38pm
Sam:

Yeah, I feel like if you can find the joy in doing ordinary things, like singing while you walk or taking the scenic route, then you don’t need games so much. My family always wants to play board games, and I’m usually like meh, I would much more enjoy a walk watching the trees and the trains and other real stuff.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:38pm
Deano de los Muertos:

in my warehouse, a toilet seat was installed that is so uncomfortable, you won’t want to sit on it for more than a minute or two. 😑
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:39pm
Webhamster Henry:

The small carts at the local supermarket have all disappeared.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:39pm
DanFA:

I always thought that was to give you enough space for groceries. I've never gotten the unconscious suggestion that you should buy more than you need at a grocery store. I think Mark might be wrong on this one.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:39pm
Melon:

All uncomfortable chairs are crimes against humanity
  6:40pm
Sam:

It’s all part of the war on the homeless
  6:40pm
Jackie G:

the carrying baskets at food markets are gone, mostly. people took them with them because they did not have their own grocery bag. they stole them.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:40pm
DanFA:

@Melon, I used to bring a beach chair to college classes because the chairs were uncomfortable.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:41pm
Folsom:

Another old cold war game was Radar Search, trying to find a hidden ship
  6:41pm
Skillet:

Wow, I just walked into a Wal Mart and grabbed an oversized cart, thought about how im not getting that much and it would look awkward walking around with only a handful of items. Then you mention about the carts. Funny
  6:41pm
wendy del formaggio:

As Hell Gate pointed out, in addition to no seating, there’s no obvious, large display of train arrivals & departures at Moynihan Station. It’s a mall pretending to be a public transit location.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:41pm
shumyum:

boardgamegeek.com...
  6:42pm
Commuter A:

there is a beautiful seating area but it's hidden directly opposite the food Hall / Friday night disco, for ticketed passengers only with an attendant who checks your tickets
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:42pm
Melon:

Something Iv always loved about NY is the benches in the parks, Iv never been to another city with so many benches just when you need them.. yet so few public toilets..
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:43pm
Ken From Hyde Park:

I've never been, but I suspect the chairs at slot machines are highly comfortable. 🎰
  6:43pm
Jackie G:

webmaster: why do you think the small carts are gone? This only has happened in the last month or so.
Avatar 6:46pm
Jeff Moore:

Totally off today's topic, but this seems like it might be of interest to many in the Techtonic community:

[ divining / defining failure of a social media site]

zephoria.medium.com...

via:
ohai.social...
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:46pm
Webhamster Henry:

There are still baskets, but the smaller sized carts are gone. Some though they were all taken by Kingston's growing unhoused community; I don't have a real answer though. Nevertheless: big carts.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:46pm
DanFA:

Let's do this.
  6:47pm
S_Rah:

Humor
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:47pm
DanFA:

Communication
  6:47pm
that girl from that place:

Someone who listens to your ideas, and shares theirs in ways to support and scaffold towards the end goal of the project
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:47pm
Mike Sin:

Some who listens and asks a lot of questions.
  6:47pm
Rolando:

Honestly, mixed with sincerity
  6:47pm
S_Rah:

We find witty remarks to make each other t laugh without offending people
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:47pm
shumyum:

Thinks differently than me
  6:47pm
Jackie G:

hygiene
  6:47pm
wendy del formaggio:

Dynamic. Listens and relates. Has good attunement skills.
  6:47pm
Gina:

I can serve them something and they serve something else back
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:47pm
herb.nyc:

when things get dark or serious, person can toss in a joke
Avatar 6:47pm
Fredericks:

Flexibility. Provides feedback.
  6:48pm
Across the kill van kull:

Team spirit: the upfront agreement that we are working on something together, and the want to hear and share ideas
  6:48pm
Sam:

Someone who thinks I’m really smart and loves my ideas but also knows more than me and gives occasional suggestions that are super helpful.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:48pm
DanFA:

Someone who will do all the work and let you take all the credit.
  6:48pm
su:

they amplify good ideas
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:48pm
iiibeat:

Solid trust
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:48pm
Webhamster Henry:

Also, folks, WFMU is now on Mastodon @WFMU@c.im
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:48pm
Melon:

Someone who challenges you to be more than you'd be alone, but is still humble enough to ask for help and know that not everything they say is final; and makes you feel and do the same.
  6:48pm
S_Rah:

Hygiene lol
  6:48pm
Rolando:

Time and treats, which often induces fellowship.
Avatar 6:49pm
K8:

Energy (even when faced with obstacles) and Empathy
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:49pm
herb.nyc:

don't be a Yes Man
  6:50pm
S_Rah:

I like it when they’re cordial and polite. I hate rudeness. Be civil!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:51pm
Webhamster Henry:

Someone who actually reads my long, carefully composed emails.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:51pm
chresti:

Objective, doesn't get offended if you suggest an improvement to their idea.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:51pm
herb.nyc:

what did woody allen say, "those who can, do. those who can't do, teach. those who can't teach, teach gym". sure!
  6:51pm
v-dawg:

Regarding the shopping cart:
At certain stores, there are no shopping baskets because people forgot to return them because people used the baskets as their shopping bag/container. So you have to use a shopping cart at certain stores instead; at other stores you use a box at the store or your own shopping bag or nothing. I have never felt obliged to fill up my shopping cart because of the "empty space".

I would comment on seating at various public transportation locales, but that would be a novella.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:52pm
Webhamster Henry:

This list turns into a LinkedIn article...
  6:52pm
Jackie G:

once was working with someone who took their shoes off. everyone agreed he should put his shoes back on.
Avatar 6:53pm
HyperDose:

K8 😃 Thank you for taking care of our dear Handy over the weekend!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:53pm
herb.nyc:

@jackie g, yr comment made me think of stewart copeland. he said "the police are in a mexican standoff. sting thinks he's a genius and we don't".
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:53pm
Ken From Hyde Park:

Someone who can steer things back to the main point when folks start losing focus.
Avatar 6:54pm
Jeff Moore:

Someone who pays close enough attention to what I'm suggesting and understands the problem domain well enough to spot areas I hadn't thought deeply enough about. Points them out with the ruthless clarity allowed by securely established mutual respect.

[I'm nostalgic for the times my friend Bennett and I have gotten to work together]
  6:54pm
v-dawg:

@Webhamster Henry
Thanks for the info. Will WMFU now display its Mastodon posts on the WFMU home page?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:54pm
herb.nyc:

have the democrats and republicans in wash, dc, play this game.
  6:55pm
wendy del formaggio:

In organization & social justice realms, we call this “establishing group norms.” I love this process for developing the norms. I’ve learned something useful yet again on Techtonic. Yay!
Avatar 6:55pm
K8:

@HyperDose: You don't have to thank me! Also, besides chilling out with him and occasionally bringing him things, I didn't do so much.
  6:55pm
Sam:

Lots of people would prefer to be an original, edgy outsider individual than a good collaborator.
  6:57pm
Sam:

Not that they’re mutually exclusive. But being a good collaborator sounds sort of conformist.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm
efd:

@v-dawg There's not going to be a feed for now since we're going to start by posting station info that will generally already be on the homepage. Depending on how our Mastodon presence evolves over time we may add a feed down the road.
  6:58pm
Jackie G:

Fun show. Good games talk. And everyone won. Thanks Eric and Mark.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:58pm
JohnEBGood:

Well Trump should be in jail. But the Constitution and the Bible are outdated and a lot of bullshit! Peace ; )
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:58pm
Elena:

Thank you, great show
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:58pm
Deano de los Muertos:

Thanks Mark
Avatar 6:58pm
HyperDose:

Great interview, Mark!
  6:59pm
wendy del formaggio:

Thanks Mark!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:59pm
chresti:

Thanks Mark and Eric!
  6:59pm
wind:

🙏🏽
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:59pm
Webhamster Henry:

It's great to have a live guest to share chat comments with!
  6:59pm
Sam:

Kid and play, everyone.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 7:00pm
chresti:

@Sam- always!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 7:00pm
Ken From Hyde Park:

Thanks, Mark & Eric!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 7:00pm
Will thee Sound Guy:

thank you Mark, Eric, and chatters!!!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 8:05pm
Handy Haversack:

Fantastic show, Mark -- many thanks to you and Eric!
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