Options Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from August 10, 2020 Options

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Conversations with creators and thinkers who are charting the way forward in a tech-saturated society. Tech, community, video games, and whatever else is next.

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Upcoming events:

Mon. Sep 28th, 6pm - 7pm: Ken guest hosts for Techtonic

Options August 10, 2020: Joel Kotkin, author, "The Coming of Neo-Feudalism"

Listen to this show: MP3 - 128K |  Pop‑up player!

Tonight: Joel Kotkin, author, "The Coming of Neo-Feudalism"



Pointers:

The Coming of Neo-Feudalism: A Warning to the Global Middle Class, by Joel Kotkin

Joel Kotkin's website

PA's Rep. Mary Gay Scanlon questions Jeff Bezos about his anti-competitive pursuit of Diapers.com (from the Big Tech hearings on July 29 - see details - see also the Wall Street On Parade coverage)

• See last week's Techtonic episode (Aug 3, 2020 show) for more hearings clips, and the interview with Lisa Macpherson, who wrote The game is rigged

How to Help Lebanon After Beirut Explosion (NYT, August 5) - thanks to Sheila B. for the pointer.

- - -

YOU CAN STILL DONATE TO WFMU if you want to show support for Techtonic. Thanks.

Check out techtonic.fm for recent Techtonic interviews and Little Slice of Tech Pie segments.

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Artist Track Images Approx. start time
  Joel Kotkin, author, "The Coming of Neo-Feudalism: A Warning to the Global Middle Class"
Tomaš Dvořák  Game Boy Tune   Options
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  Mark's intro  
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0:00:01 (MP3 | Pop‑up)
  Interview with Joel Kotkin  
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0:10:16 (MP3 | Pop‑up)
  Mark comments on Jeff Bezos at the hearings  
Options
0:41:00 (MP3 | Pop‑up)
Monty Python  I'm Being Repressed   Options
Options
0:55:08 (MP3 | Pop‑up)


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Listener comments!

Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:00pm listener james from westwood:

Howdy, Mark and all! Looks like it's serf and turf for dinner!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:00pm ultradamno:

Mark! Techarlmagne Tha Tonics!
  6:00pm David in London:

Evening Mark and all Technoids.
Avatar 6:02pm TDK60:

Hello there.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:02pm Handy Haversack:

Mark and the Techyon Drives! Good to be here with you.

Glad you could make it, David!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:03pm Bas NL:

Hi Mark! Techtonicalisms!
  6:03pm Dave Miss:

Howdy all skeleton crew and Mark!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:04pm I k e:

Wasn't diapers.com located in Jersey City very close to WFMU, or am I thinking of some other company purchased by Amazon?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:04pm melinda:

hi gang
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:04pm Mark Hurst:

@James, @Ultra, @DiL, @TDK60, @Handy, @Bas, @Dave, @I k e, @melinda - welcome to one and all!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:05pm Ken From Hyde Park:

¡ɔᴉuoʇɥɔǝ┴
  6:05pm David in London:

“I’m sorry Congresswoman, I don’t..., errr, .... we’ve never, sorry... what was the question congresswoman?”

Hey Handy, Ultradamno, TDK.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:05pm Mark Hurst:

@KfHP nice
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:06pm ultradamno:

Hiya Ken
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:07pm ultradamno:

Hiya DiL!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:07pm ultradamno:

Got my swag today!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:09pm Handy Haversack:

ultradamno, me too!
  6:09pm Old Dave:

We've forgotten our Monty Python instruction on this topic.
  6:09pm Dave Miss:

Written recently from my friend Stefan:

https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/its-time-to-let-the-serfs-return-to-the-fields
  6:10pm Listener Robert:

One thing you have now that resembles the guild system of long ago are the constraints on labor mobility caused by formal occupational and business licensing and informal credentialism.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:11pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63:

Not likely lost on anyone here that Marx illustrated history in just this manner
- as a straight line continuum from Slavery to Feudalism to Capitalism...& on a very good day - beyond.
Here on small-town New England - we remember the factory bosses who were also the landlords...
Can it escape anyone's sight that they're dragging us back ??
  6:11pm Listener Robert:

There's a great many lines of work now that it's infeasible to go into unless you want to orient your whole career around them.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:13pm Handy Haversack:

Though one issue might be that the middle class has always only been a Western / Global North phenomenon -- and generally white -- that was a screen for the continued existence of a massive serf class. The middle class became the great generator of neoliberalism as they were trained to preserve their own privilege as the global serf class continued to be exploited to create it. If they (me, too) are losing it now, allying withe the serfs is likely the only decent way to go.

Not prejudging the guest, just stating some principles.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:17pm coelacanth∅:

i don't thing crapple has improved since snow leopard
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:17pm Handy Haversack:

Not sure the answer to bad capitalism can ever be more capitalism ...
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:18pm coelacanth∅:

they're drowning! give them water!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:18pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63:

This ! As powerful as Tech has gotten - it is stifled by Monopoly ! Facebook vampires MySpace - but none shall challenge the developmentally stunted dorm boy Zuck.
Avatar 6:19pm Fredericks:

In the days of the company store, store owners would decide what you could afford. Black folks liked the Sears catalogue because they could buy nicer clothes and have them delivered.
  6:20pm castor:

Hi Mark and everyone! I’ve been writing some sci-fi of a future feudal/dark age, post climate change induced societal collapse, but it’s dominated by the new religion, basically techno-Gaianism, all the new age spiritual and transhumanist trends turned into totalitarian fundamentalism purporting to save humanity through complete submission. Looks to be exciting times!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:24pm Mark Hurst:

@castor sounds interesting! I hope it remains fiction......
Avatar 6:24pm ledzeppelinsucks:

there are more rednecks in CA than any other state. why do people think it is full of gays, movie stars, surfers, hot chicks and rich people?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:26pm ultradamno:

Well, it is literally where the vast majority of movie people live
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:26pm PaulRobeson1920:

Debt peonage in Guatemala. Gives meaning to the concept of “Banana Republic”
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:26pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63:

Episode of Le Show by Harry Shearer interview with author of Goliath - a history of Monopoloy in the USA : there has been success for Labor in the past - it's not completely new :
harryshearer.com...
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:27pm Handy Haversack:

Yeah, he said it's a global phenomenon and then proved it by naming the global North.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:27pm Mark Hurst:

I quoted the author of "Goliath" (Matt Stoller) in this morning's Wake & Bake Little Slice of Tech Pie segment.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:27pm ultradamno:

And I think Texas would beg to differ on the redneck count.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:27pm PaulRobeson1920:

Just parked the lorry... The Pigeon sent me
Avatar 6:28pm ledzeppelinsucks:

CA has a hell of a lot more rednecks than any state
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:28pm Mark Hurst:

@Paul welcome, fellow glistener!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:28pm coelacanth∅:

what's a redneck?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:28pm ultradamno:

Show me the census numbers under redneck. I'm still voting Texas.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:29pm Ken From Hyde Park:

What, pray tell, does the modern serf retirement plan look like?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:29pm Bas NL:

We'll reach the 17th century again soon.. ;)
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:29pm Mark Hurst:

@coel perjorative term I don't like, not sure how it applies to tonight's show
Avatar 6:29pm ledzeppelinsucks:

coel drive from Yreka to El Centro and you will see
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:29pm chris:

hi, Mark and folks.
interesting conversation, provoking thoughts...
to your point, ledzepp, most of the hate groups that exist in the US are well represented in inner and mountain California.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:29pm Handy Haversack:

Yokes, Ken. Yokes.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:30pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63:

California is very large & has more of everything. Lots of ahh - lots of Money. Not all Liberal / Left ...& - what I call California Republicans... : vote for money - but if *your* daughter needs an abortion - it's a-ok....
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:31pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63:

Lots of *Agg - agriculture.
Avatar 6:31pm ledzeppelinsucks:

agriculture is the biggest business in CA
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:32pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63:

Plenty of Weapons manufacture in Cali...
  6:33pm Old Dave:

This guy understands the Chesterton/Belloc ideal of Distributism, as described over 100 years ago.
Owning your home makes you care about your community, owning a small farm makes you able to support a community, etc.
Avatar 6:35pm ledzeppelinsucks:

and people that live in CA don't call it 'Cali'
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:36pm Webhamster Henry:

It's good to get back to Wendell Berry.
  6:36pm Old Dave:

Berry is the essential author on all this!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:36pm ultradamno:

www.youtube.com...
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:36pm Mark Hurst:

@Webham @Old Dave agreed!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:36pm Webhamster Henry:

When I lived in NYC, I was completely walkable & telecommutable EVEN TO JOBS IN NYC.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:38pm ultradamno:

You say nihilistic, I say realistic, let's call reproduction off.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:41pm mariano:

I plugged this on another show, but English writer Jim Crace wrote a novel, "The Pesthouse," about a "medieval" post-apocalyptic US: www.goodreads.com...
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:41pm Megaroni:

What an incredible interview- thank you Techtonic for bringing us topics so relevant for our societal collapse
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:41pm Handy Haversack:

It might be my vasectomy talking, but I have to say I find this guest a little ... reactionary might overstate it except that he named exactly the *extremely white* and the illusorily-prosperous time he wants to restore.

I guess "bougey" gets it done.

He is rhetorically gifted. And smart. But convinced that what led to *his* success is what leads to success. What it leads to is the global ruin that we confront right now.
  6:41pm Barbara in PA:

Reshoring is already becoming a priority in many countries, not just the US, for a number of reasons.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:43pm nickybones:

Sounds like he's mostly advocating reformist policies rather than dismantling. Which, fine. But, a lot of us are past that idea.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:44pm Bas NL:

Kotkin has a point.. but what to do?
Avatar 6:44pm TDK60:

Alternate ideas already long existed - cooperative economics, decentralizing, more democracy.
  6:44pm Barbara in PA:

Handy Haversack, just saw your comment. I was getting a similar uneasy feeling about the guest's pronouncements.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:45pm Webhamster Henry:

Medieval history was written by ... guess who.
  6:45pm johnzo:

hell yea! we need a people's party. missed most of this, gotta remember to go back & listen to the whole interview
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:45pm Handy Haversack:

Hi, Barbara!

I guess it was just that he said he identified with a govt. that sees its job as moving people (Truman admin., so -- white people) into the middle class, whereas I want government to think of its job as protecting all of us from the existence of class.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:46pm ultradamno:

@Handy Speaking my language now.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:47pm coelacanth∅:

Handy Hear Hear!
  6:47pm sufferwords:

Thanks Mark.. you’re response to it all is one that resonates - basically shit’s fucked so probably a good idea to unfuck it
  6:48pm kevlicki:

Damnit, late to the party again!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:48pm Webhamster Henry:

A side effect of the Monopolistic suppression factor is that Startups have to be really stupid or useless not to be squashed by them.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:48pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63:

Not so sure. Wages graphed against Cost of Living & Productivity have gone down since the early 1970s - & this has been the design of the Right Wing - eventually the Karl Rove assassination of cooperative bipartisan government - which was the background to the major Democratic sellout to neoliberalusm the sold out Corporate press & media don't investigate or report.
Our contemporary Tech & New Media realities have intersectionality with this
- but that's not the same thing exactly...
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:50pm Handy Haversack:

Rev Rab -- graph it against the salaries and wealth concentration of those who work for Big Tech. They mostly just trade employees among them. An insane amount of the money that workers used to be paid is now concentrated in those companies.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:50pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63:

People are selling books - & why wouldn't they...
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:50pm ultradamno:

Which is why, in the brick and mortar world, there are large areas that have been only served by empty Wal-Marts
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:52pm coelacanth∅:

Thank you ronnie raygun for making it all possible.
  6:52pm Old Dave:

Who else bought the Kotkin book on Amazon? I must slap myself now.
Avatar 6:53pm TDK60:

Thanks Mark.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:54pm PaulRobeson1920:

Remember- Being born a Citizen is political... We get the concept of “Citizenship” and “Democracy” from Ancient Athens. Democracy and small r republicanism are birthed by a highly, highly, literate society. Where my Philosopher Kings at?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:54pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63:

Ronnie wins the Cold War for Crapitalism !
...Drumpf bargains with Putin...
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:56pm Handy Haversack:

Thanks, Mark! Another thinker! Much needed and much appreciated!

Thanks, Skeletons!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:56pm Bas NL:

Thanks Mark!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:56pm Mark Hurst:

@Handy thanks as always for joining!
  6:56pm David in London:

Thanks Mark.
  6:56pm P-90:

When you guys are discussing the rollback of legal constraints in monopolies that made all this possible , don’t forget it was one Robert Bork that played THE key role.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:56pm PaulRobeson1920:

How would people maintain full human dignity amidst the crumbling Roman Republic? Philosophy
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm coelacanth∅:

Thanks Mark! Thanks guest and Thanks skelecrew!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm PaulRobeson1920:

“How do you know hes the king”!!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm Corey:

Thanks for the great show Mark! Wiser after the past hour as usual.
  6:57pm Old Dave:

There we go!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm Mark Hurst:

@Bas @coel @Corey thanks!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm Handy Haversack:

'Elp! 'Elp!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63:

Thanks.
PYTHON. Genius.
  6:57pm P-90:

*restraints ON monopolies
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm PaulRobeson1920:

“He’s not covered in shit” haha
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm Mark Hurst:

@Old Dave you knew it :)
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:58pm Handy Haversack:

Listen to Dennis, Kotkin!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:59pm ultradamno:

You can't trust pond dwelling women, that is true.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:00pm Handy Haversack:

Strange Women Lying in Ponds. That is the ultimate title for any autobiography.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:00pm Mark Hurst:

Somewhere I came across a meme - "Strange Women Lying in Ponds 2020" - as a presidential campaign poster
  7:00pm P-90:

“NOW you see the violence inherent in the system!”
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:00pm Ken From Hyde Park:

"I'm being repressed!" Thanks, Mark.
  7:01pm Chuck Halbach:

Cannot top Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Bring out your dead...
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:01pm Revolution Rabbit Nov63:

Splunge For Me Too
~~~~~2020~~~~~
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:02pm ultradamno:

Here it is www.pinterest.com...
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