Options Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from May 28, 2018 Options

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Conversations with creators and thinkers who are charting the way forward in a tech-saturated society. Tech, community, video games, and whatever else is next.

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Options May 28, 2018: Meredith Broussard, author, "Artificial Unintelligence"

Listen to this show: Pop-up listen Pop‑up player!

This week: Meredith Broussard, NYU professor and author of the new book "Artificial Unintelligence: How Computers Misunderstand the World."

Pointers to Meredith's work:

@merbroussard on Twitter

Meredith's site

Book site for Artificial Unintelligence (see also at Indiebound)

Slate Money podcast with Meredith, co-hosted by Felix Salmon, our guest on last week's show!

Self-Driving Cars Still Don't Know How to See, by Meredith Broussard (The Atlantic, March 20)

Talking with Meredith Broussard about 'Artificial Unintelligence' (LA Times, April 26)

Self-Driving Mercedes-Benzes Will Prioritize Occupant Safety over Pedestrians (Car and Driver, Oct 2016): "The world’s oldest carmaker no longer sees the problem, similar to the question from 1967 known as the Trolley Problem, as unanswerable. Rather than tying itself into moral and ethical knots in a crisis, Mercedes-Benz simply intends to program its self-driving cars to save the people inside the car. Every time. . . . 'If you know you can save at least one person, at least save that one. Save the one in the car.'" (See also: Self-Driving Mercedes Will Be Programmed To Sacrifice Pedestrians To Save The Driver (Fast Company, October 2016).)

"In a self-driving car, death is a feature, not a bug."
- Meredith Broussard, Artificial Unintelligence, page 144.

Other tech news

Facial recognition cameras in China snag man who allegedly stole $17,000 worth of potatoes (Washington Post, May 22)

Ticketmaster to trial facial recognition technology at live venues (VentureBeat, May 4)

Amazon’s Facial Recognition Fans Big Brother Fears (WSJ, May 22): "The retail giant has been selling the technology as a means to help authorities identify suspects in surveillance footage . . . The ACLU and other civil-rights organizations sent a letter to Amazon Chief Executive Jeff Bezos expressing 'profound concerns' about the potential misuse of the technology, which Amazon calls Rekognition."

Alexa listened to a couple's conversation and sent it to the husband's employee without permission (BoingBoing, May 24): Complaint from a Portland woman that Alexa "listened in on a conversation and sent it to a random contact of theirs – one of her husband's employees. . . When KIRO-7 questioned Amazon, they responded with this: 'Amazon takes privacy very seriously. We investigated what happened and determined this was an extremely rare occurrence. We are taking steps to avoid this from happening in the future.'"

How to make sure your Amazon Echo doesn't send secret recordings (CNN, May 25) - almost unbelievably, CNN actually suggests that you "live like everyone's watching": "You can unplug them all until you are confident in the tech industries [sic] privacy protections, or you can go about your daily life avoiding doing or saying anything embarrassing (or illegal)." Thanks, CNN, we'll try to be more compliant from now on!

...and finally, someone improved this Facebook ad in a Manhattan subway station - look closely:

- - -

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Artist Track Album Label Images Approx. start time
  Mark speaks with Meredith Broussard, NYU professor and author of the new book "Artificial Unintelligence," about the limits of AI. Also, why we should probably stop all development of self-driving cars, right away.
Tomaš Dvořák  Game Boy Tune   Options Machinarium Soundtrack  No label 
  Mark's intro          
  Interview with Meredith Broussard      
0:14:35 (Pop‑up)
  Your calls and comments 201-209-9368      
0:40:50 (Pop‑up)
Marc Burt  Human Intelligence   Options Best Bytes Volume 3  Toucan Music    0:34:47 (Pop‑up)

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Listener comments!

Avatar 6:01pm Bas NL:

Hello Mark!
Avatar 6:01pm geezerette:

This is gonna be good. :)
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:02pm listener james from westwood:

Evening, Mark and all!!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:04pm listener james from westwood:

Totally not whistling the main Terminator theme, nope, not at all....
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:06pm listener james from westwood:

Oh, no, I see where this is going...
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:07pm listener james from westwood:

BOOM, facial recog!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:07pm Ken From Hyde Park:

The old "facial recognition scan" trick, eh?
  6:07pm Warren in Australia:

Hi Mark!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:08pm listener james from westwood:

Ticketmaster: Hold my grossly-inflated-in-price beer.
  6:08pm melinda:

Hi peoples
Avatar 6:08pm geezerette:

Time to haul out the Guy Faulkes Halloween masks. Where 'em everywhere, all the time.
Avatar 6:08pm herb.nyc:

Mark mentions 1st time listeners. I be listening maybe 32,33x. Where's my medal? Where's my potato?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:09pm listener james from westwood:

See also: Griffin's facial recognition, for casinos looking for cheaters, from the turn of the millennium. To "protect the integrity of the games."
Avatar 6:09pm geezerette:

Jeff Bezos is not from this planet.
Avatar 6:11pm northguineahills:

I've been to mayb 4 concerts where Ticketmaster was involved in the last 25 years.
Avatar 6:12pm northguineahills:

I always assumed Latvia would be the potato thief.

Avatar 6:12pm herb.nyc:

Thanks for nothing, Amazon. (Oh wait, I bought the new Okkervil River cd there.)
Avatar 6:12pm Roland Munyard:

"The Book Thief", "The Potato Thief", ... and Amazon "The Face Thief", purely for you convenience of course.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:12pm listener james from westwood:

Copyediting a book about "The Sopranos" these past 2 weeks, and it reminded me of something Tony said upon spotting a fellow mobster using a wireless laptop: "Log off. That cookie shit makes me nervous."
  6:13pm Warren in Australia:

Need to find that article on a person/group who thwarted facial recognition by wearing sunglasses with a plastic eye stuck in the middle.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:13pm Ken From Hyde Park:

Those are speakers second, listening devices first.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:13pm Webhamster Henry:

Hey Mark: Let's hear your GDPR compliance statement... !
Avatar 6:14pm geezerette:

Alexa, do all my thinking for me.
  6:14pm Warren in Australia:

GDPR sing along?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:15pm coelacanth∅:

g, exactly. anyone stupid enough to have alexa deserves that shit. my sister included.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:15pm listener james from westwood:

The sick thing is, that CNN story was on a webpage that probably dropped a rich digital bevy of bits and bobs onto your computer for tracking and the like. Quid custodiet ipso custodes?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:16pm listener james from westwood:

Oh, those stupid FB ads were all over the Loop a month ago in Chicago.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:17pm Webhamster Henry:

@Warren I should probably compose something. Something in each of the official EU Languages.
Avatar 6:17pm geezerette:

Coel,fist bump,buddy.
Avatar 6:17pm herb.nyc:

"Delete fake apology"- so funny!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:17pm queems:

i need to mow my lawn but i'd rather listen to this
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:19pm JeremyB:

Ug. My wife has an amazon speaker in every room
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:20pm Ken From Hyde Park:

There was some internet headline (I forget what site) that mentioned many high schools are interested in facial recognition cameras at the doorways. That will prevent the school shootings?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:20pm Webhamster Henry:

Technochauvinists: Those propounding Tech Fixes.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:20pm coelacanth∅:

g - in my sister's defense her clueless husband gave her alexa for xmas - but she shouldn't keep it powered; or keep it at all.
  6:20pm Allbunny:

Yay, surveillance! What could possibly go wrong. LOL
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:23pm coelacanth∅:

it's asinine - like referring to the gps voice as "she" or "he", rather than the correct "it".
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:23pm dale:

when alexa was like $39 at xmas i thought about one so i could say 'alexa, play some nick cave' but thought better of bugging my home more than it may be already.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:24pm coelacanth∅:

dale would alexa play music?
Avatar 6:26pm geezerette:

Silicon Valley sells more snake oil than Big Pharma does.
  6:27pm Meredith:

This is the Java shirt I just mentioned: https://svahausa.com/products/java-code-unisex-adult-t-shirt?variant=7423357026327
  6:27pm Warren in Australia:

@webmaster henry that would be terrific!
Avatar 6:27pm Bas NL:

Currently there's discussion in The Netherlands about government profiling citizens to determine the 'likelihood' people will do something wrong.. avoiding taxes, fraud with social security.. the idea is these people are targeted for extra audits etc... Scary? I think so!
  6:28pm Meredith:

Mark, thanks for a great interview!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:28pm Mark Hurst:

Hi everyone, thanks for joining! Meredith, thanks for being with us - also, great shirt :)
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:28pm listener james from westwood:

"Berne," the Finn said, ignoring him. "Berne. It's got limited Swiss citizenship under their equivalent of the Act of '53. Built for Tessier-Ashpool S.A. They own the mainframe and the original software.
"What's in Berne, okay?" Case deliberately stepped between them.
"Wintermute is the recognition code for an AI. I've got the Turing Registry numbers. Artificial intelligence."
—William Gibson, "Neuromancer"
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:29pm Mark Hurst:

I was re-reading "Artificial Unintelligence" today - so many good thoughts & resources.
  6:29pm Meredith:

  6:29pm herb.nyc:

Self-driving car thinks digitally, to kill pedestrian or not.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:30pm listener james from westwood:

Hey, Professor B! By coincidence, I'm proofreading a tech book while listening. Not on Java; on FreeBSD this evening!
  6:30pm Meredith:

Nice! I'm impressed-- proofreading tech books is hard work.
  6:31pm Meredith:

Did everyone see the NYT story with details on what happened in the Uber accident? https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/24/technology/uber-autonomous-car-ntsb-investigation.html
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:32pm listener james from westwood:

Thanks! This one actually has flashes of humor, so it's a bit less arduous!
  6:32pm Meredith:

Less arduous indeed! :)
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:33pm listener james from westwood:

I also proof college-level philosophy anthologies, and the various Trolley Problem essays come up in most of them. I always feel bad when they suggest pushing a portly gent onto the track, and not entirely b/c that could be me!
Avatar 6:34pm Bas NL:

Real live people tend to avoid hypothetical situations...
  6:34pm Meredith:

LOL. Maybe my story about how image recognition algorithms can be defeated by sparkly unicorn stickers will become popular among the folks who discuss the trolley problem!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:35pm dale:

i think she would play music. or was that the amazon doohicky?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:35pm listener james from westwood:

I know someone with a sparkly unicorn T-shirt, and she may be way ahead of us on the dazzle-camouflage tip!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:36pm Ken From Hyde Park:

What's to prevent some joker from throwing up fake stop signs in random places and causing havoc?
  6:36pm Meredith:

Dazzle camouflage. Love it.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:36pm Webhamster Henry:

The old idea of AI was "if we can get this algorithm to think, we can figure out how intelligent beings think" .. but with the learning modeling as it is now, the pathways and justifications of though are just as opaque as they are in meatspace though.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:36pm listener james from westwood:

Bas NL: This kid had a novel solution to the hypothetical Trolley Problem. . . . www.youtube.com...
  6:36pm herb.nyc:

I'll read NYTimes article later, thx. But, was the person "driver" in self drive car tested for alcohol? Seriously.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:37pm coelacanth∅:

my mother has a sparkly unicorn hoodie. should i be concerned that she might be plowed down by a mercedes?
Avatar 6:38pm geezerette:

Bas, "Minority Report". Artificial Precognition, (the only kind there is).
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:38pm Mark Hurst:

Meredith, thanks for the pointer to the Uber story - good one! "A built-in emergency braking system had been disabled while the car was in autonomous mode to ensure a smoother ride . . . [the failure came from] a combination of a computer system not responding properly to the pedestrian’s presence, and a distracted safety driver."
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:38pm melinda:

Fascinating topic.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:38pm listener james from westwood:

Oh, don't worry, the tech giants' lobbyists will write those laws. . . . [weeps]
Avatar 6:38pm Bas NL:

LOL Nice one @listener James! Kid's ethics rule..
  6:38pm Meredith:

"If there's a glittery unicorn sticker, it's all over!"
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:39pm listener james from westwood:

We won't be able to cross a state border in a self-driving car w/o scrolling thru a freakin' EULA and clicking ACCEPT!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:39pm dale:

someone told me right on red is allowed everywhere EXCEPT nyc. don't know if it's true. the one i don't get is 'stop here on red.' after you stop are you allowed to turn or do you have to wait for a green?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:40pm Vanessa bikes:

I am a big fan of the self driving cars idera, and I think it should take plenty of planning and thought, but ultimately, I think people are bad drivers and have accidents and how often does this trolley problem actually happen? drunk drivers happen, and I see bad distracted drivers everyday, so I think it is worth it to make this work.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:40pm ultradamno:

Just got in, I recall hearing that self-driving cars had a problem differentiating between large, undecorated truckers with open sky and were likely to crash into them (sorry if this has already been mentioned)
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:40pm listener james from westwood:

Shortly after the first human was killed by a car-building robot implement in an auto factory, Robert Silverberg got a short story in OMNI about this in the early-ish 80s. Might be worth revisiting given where we headed in the following 35 years.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:41pm dale:

those three are just collateral damage - for the advancement of the technology let's let it pass.
Avatar 6:41pm Bas NL:

Hmm... yes @geezerette.. that sounds more.. hmm..
Avatar 6:42pm geezerette:

I wanted to know how the hell were these vehicles being tested in public spaces? How is that even legal?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:42pm melinda:

@geeze good question
  6:42pm herb.nyc:

Would Meredith mind if I looked for her book at the public library?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:42pm Webhamster Henry:

I don't think the state laws problem is a problem. People are not going to program these things - the AI is going to code it. There s already legal understanding work progressing in AI. I'm hoping the AI can make the laws more consistent and rigorous (in the computational language sense).

I think Kurzweil is right; learning is exponential, and also once a single instance has been trained on it, all of them can use that knowledge.
  6:43pm Meredith:

@ultradamno-- yes, self-driving cars have trouble recognizing large stationary objects. Like fire trucks.

@dale: Found the right on red thing: "Turning right on red is prohibited in cities with a population of more than one million unless a sign permits it." http://www.safeny.ny.gov/roadrule.htm
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:43pm melinda:

yes, get the lawyers involved. And I mean that.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:43pm coelacanth∅:

there are many negative implications of self-driving vehicles besides the immediate and obvious. (human casualties)
  6:43pm Meredith:

@herb.ny: yes, I'd be delighted if you got the book from the library! Libraries are fantastic.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:44pm dale:

meredith - holy crap! how do i know how many people live in a city?
  6:44pm herb.nyc:

My friend in yonkers just discovered a "no right on red at this corner" sign. yonkers has a right on red law.
Avatar 6:44pm geezerette:

Great interview, Mark & Meredith!
  6:44pm Meredith:

@dale: it's hard, right?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:45pm Webhamster Henry:

Just don't go right on red. That's not a hard rule to learn!
Avatar 6:45pm Bas NL:

Good interview. Maybe we could profile potential dangerous human car drivers?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:45pm Tommy in Neversink:

We could revive our rail system with more hi speed rail ...instead of this nonsense
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:45pm coelacanth∅:

people are obsessed with "ai" and such because they've been brainwashed by fantastic movies since they were little. it's exciting.
Avatar 6:45pm northguineahills:

Gracias Mark y Meredith, I got to run run run, take a drag or two (but I don't smoke)
  6:46pm Meredith:

@Tommy: yes, investing in public transit is essential.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:46pm dale:

been driving 41 years - it doesn't get easier (if you care that is)
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:46pm Webhamster Henry:

The self driving car is about the last mile problem. One way to get close to solving that is to make it a last 100 feet problem.
Avatar 6:47pm geezerette:

Avatar 6:47pm Jack:

I was opposed to the automatic transmission; if you can't clutch and shift, then you have no business operating a vehicle on public roads. Now we got cruise control!!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:48pm dale:

i remember 'total recall' had the johnny cab, with a robot that looked like jerry mahoney driving.
  6:48pm herb.nyc:

Remove the brakes in driverless cars! The smoothest ride possible! -- see you all at the library.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:48pm melinda:

@Tommy I wish there was more emphasis in this area, I think of it every time the topic of self-driving cars comes up.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:49pm Tommy in Neversink:

I never trusted those unicorns anyway....I always suspected they were up to no good
Avatar 6:49pm Jim Price:

Mark, you end the show today with the Sparks song, Let the Monkey Drive.
Avatar 6:49pm Bas NL:

if $name="dale" then safe_driver=true;
That's one! Someone else?
Avatar 6:49pm geezerette:

Mark,this show is such a public service.
Avatar 6:50pm Jim Price:

i forgot the Youtube link. Maybe Scott will bring you the CD.

Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:50pm Tommy in Neversink:

Obama tried to get it off the ground but the plan was rejected by many republican governors
Avatar 6:50pm northguineahills:

Nice knowing Doug Schulkind (WFMU's gatekeeper of Give the Drummer Some stream, who lives in Pittsburgh).
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:50pm Webhamster Henry:

There's another problem with AI which has to do with standards for the ML databases that are built : there's not much incentive for separate private companies to share their proprietary ML models , say, for driving. If there were a single standard, all self driving cars (or other robots) would benefit from the training over a much larger experience base. As soon as one of them figures out the sparkly unicorn label, they all will.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:51pm Ken From Hyde Park:

Also, New York state allows left turns on red provided you're on a one-way and turning onto another one-way street. Probably doesn't apply in all jurisdictions.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:51pm Webhamster Henry:

@ngh it's Doug's Birthday today!
Avatar 6:51pm Drunken Creep:

As an NYC trucker, I see automated vehicles are inevitable and will be fully implemented by 2050. I appreciate professor Brousard's outlook that we could stop that development now... people like myself would still have jobs. However, my opinion is we are on the brink of a major techo-evolutionary leap in the next century, and that will include big changes in transportation as we know it, along with many other things that would push our imaginations today
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:51pm melinda:

Seems that even if AI learns exponentially it would still have to do so in real-life conditions and take out more people in the process.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:52pm dale:

yes - they should test this technology in amish country first.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:52pm Webhamster Henry:

The best way not to sit in traffic is to telework.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:53pm ultradamno:

Can the car be taught to determine if the crowd of children are up to something shady?
  6:53pm Meredith:

A trucker called in to a show where we discussed self-driving cars recently. He said that his truck is loaded with sensors, and they rarely work. Stuff breaks; I don't want to be on the road when a self-driving semi truck fails next to me.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:53pm Ken From Hyde Park:

I presume John Deere is working on self-driving tractors and combines?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:53pm listener james from westwood:

@dale: "You're in a Johnny Cab!" The voice was Robert Picardo, and maybe a bit of the facial design!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:54pm melinda:

Good point Meredith.
  6:55pm Meredith:

@Ken-- farming is the area where I am most excited about autonomous tech. A self-driving tractor seems safer than a self-driving semi.

There's an interesting conversation about farmers and the right to repair. I'll find a link.
  6:55pm Warren in Australia:

@Ken from Hype Park Self driving tractors are already in use, however a driver must be present
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:55pm dale:

james from ww - was that the holographic doctor from star trek voyager?
  6:56pm Meredith:

Links on farmers:

  6:57pm Meredith:

Mark, thanks for a great show. Great chatting with all of you, and I hope you enjoy the book! https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/artificial-unintelligence
Avatar 6:57pm Roland Munyard:

The answered must be Solution’ism kindly delivered by Jeff Bezos and Mark Zuckerberg, but it's quickly turning into the Thrombosis of the Deep Neural Networks,

AI is Breathtaking Math and Statistics, nevertheless it's very narrow. Ethics in Computer Science, and the answer lies in a Liberal Arts Degree all of which I agree with, (history repeats itself).

Self Driving - It's coded in the non brain of the AI Computer and easily confused by a shopping cart trolley. - Thank you for your book Meredith Broussard - "Artificial Unintelligence: How Computers Misunderstand the World."
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm coelacanth∅:

from the corporate perspective it has nothing to do with convenience or safety. it's about monetary revenue. Drunken Creep's post @6.51 calling attention to the example of company's saving money by not paying drivers.
- another example is just so they have more new shit to sell everyone.
Avatar 6:57pm geezerette:

Thanks yet again Mark!!!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm JeremyB:

Great Episode again!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm dale:

ken - gps driven tractors are huge out west. bit there's no one to run over in a 1000 acre wheat field.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:58pm melinda:

yay techtonic.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:58pm Ken From Hyde Park:

Farm equipment would need stuff like fence line, wet spot and rock pile detection algorithms.
  6:58pm Warren in Australia:

Great Ep Mark!
Avatar 6:58pm Bas NL:

Thanks Mark! All!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:58pm Webhamster Henry:

The Singularity won't happen because all the computing bandwidth is going to be taken up with cryptocurrency mining.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:58pm listener james from westwood:

Yay for summer-season Techtonic! And thanks for this week's show!
Avatar 6:59pm geezerette:

Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:59pm Ken From Hyde Park:

Thanks, Mark & Meredith. Good luck with your book and other projects.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:00pm Webhamster Henry:

Thanks! Hear ya next week!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:00pm coelacanth∅:

my sister has cars with all sorts of thought-saving features like to keep distance, lane changing warnings, etc...that sometimes work properly. they make the cars considerably less safe.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:00pm Franco Twinkie:

Warm Leatherette - Just sayin'
Avatar 7:00pm Bas NL:

But.. Is it a hock or is it a durse?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:00pm coelacanth∅:

Thanks Mark and Meredith!
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