Favoriting Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from January 23, 2023 Favoriting

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Favoriting January 23, 2023: Sarah Lamdan, author, "Data Cartels"

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Today: Sarah Lamdan, author, “Data Cartels”

Sarah Lamdan, is Professor of Law at the City University of New York School of Law and author of “Data Cartels: The Companies That Control and Monopolize Our Information.” LexisNexis and Westlaw used to be known as publishers of academic and legal information. But a few years ago they changed: now they rely on surveillance and analysis, profiting from information that should be publicly available - or not collected in the first place.

Data Cartels, published by Stanford University Press

Erinn Acland (Jan 13, 2023): “Starting 2023, four universities are pausing or ending their Elsevier subscription due to exorbitant pricing.

- Elsevier’s subscription was costing them ~10% of their Libraries’ entire budget.

- ‘Elsevier’s prices have increased each year and have outpaced inflation’...this is despite Elsevier having the highest profit margins of virtually any other industry or publisher.”

Welcome to Hotel Elsevier: you can check-out any time you like … not (by Eiko Fried, May 9, 2022): “One way to make profits is Elsevier’s business as an academic publisher. . . . But in the 2020s—and now we come to the main topic of this piece—there is a second way of making money: selling data. Elsevier’s parent company RELX bills itself as ‘a global provider of information-based analytics and decision tools for professional and business customers.’”

Comments on YCombinator about the above story.

Mastodon post (Jan 9, 2023): "Last week, the Social Security Administration made moves to help Login.gov stop relying on data brokers."

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Artist Track Images Approx. start time
  Sarah Lamdan, author, "Data Cartels: The Companies That Control and Monopolize Our Information"
Tomaš Dvořák  Game Boy Tune   Favoriting
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  Mark's intro  
Favoriting
 
  Interview with Sarah Lamdan  
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0:06:42 (MP3 | Pop-up)
  Mark's comments  
Favoriting
0:45:49 (MP3 | Pop-up)
Peter Fox  Zukunft Pink   Favoriting
Favoriting
0:54:18 (MP3 | Pop-up)


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Listener comments!

Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:00pm
Handy Haversack:

Mark! Techyon Particles!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:01pm
ultradamno:

Mark! Techtoodlums!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:01pm
Handy Haversack:

Excellent, more from a scholarly publisher!
Avatar 6:01pm
Fredericks:

Techticles?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:04pm
Webhamster Henry:

Good evening, friends!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:04pm
Handy Haversack:

↳ Handy Haversack @6:01
I suppose given the topic I should specify: *nonprofit* scholarly publishing.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:04pm
herb.nyc:

hola. i love cuny. i worked at ccny. (until i didn't). why is a law professor writing ..oh, what mark said
  6:05pm
yippie:

i wonder what RELX thinks is the probability that i will commit a crime
  6:05pm
Miss G:

I"ve read the description of this show (book) over and over and I can't understand what the topic is, so that's why I'm here.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:05pm
listener james from westwood:

Evening, Mark and all!
  6:07pm
Rolando:

Present and listening
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:07pm
herb.nyc:

data brokers. i remember mark's show on this. scary. yet i haven't done anything.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:07pm
Alvy Singer:

What timing Mark. We had a Westlaw rep at our law firm today explaining all the exciting things Westlaw does.
  6:08pm
hear, hear:

Any laws are accessible from the legislative bodies that create them. If blocked, a simple public records request would allow their release.
  6:09pm
Lerch:

I'm an academic librarian, and these info and data cartels have monopolized the entire schol pub landscape. Looking so forward to this.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:10pm
Mark Hurst:

Hi all, thanks for joining!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:10pm
DjLorraine:

Thanks in advance to Mark Hurst and the informed citizens
  6:11pm
Lerch:

Smell-sevier. Clarivate is another data hoovering entity to watch.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:11pm
Mark Hurst:

@Alvy Singer wow - what timing!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:12pm
Mark Hurst:

@hear hear more details later in the interview.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:13pm
Webhamster Henry:

RIP Aaron Swarz
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:13pm
Alvy Singer:

↳ Mark Hurst @6:11
Clients absolutely refuse to pay for Westlaw of LexisNexis charges.
  6:14pm
Aitch:

Heavy vetting?
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:18pm
Ken From Hyde Park:

Good evening, Mark and profit models!
Avatar 🤖 6:19pm
Bas NL:

Hi Mark & all!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:19pm
Mark Hurst:

@KfHP @Bas hello and welcome!
  6:20pm
Sam:

Spotify bought up all the music from the 50’s. Now they have a doo-wop-oly.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:21pm
Doug in MP:

SAM
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:21pm
Mark Hurst:

Tech-duopoly puns! Only at Techtonic
  6:22pm
Sam:

Hey Doug!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:24pm
dale:

duopoly game. new techtonic premium.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:24pm
Doug in MP:

Hey Sam! Fine, I'll admit it. I laughed.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:25pm
DjLorraine:

nOoo...of course the disabled somehow...gets victumized...again
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:27pm
The Butterman:

Extruded Goo is playing in Brooklyn next week.
  6:28pm
Lerch:

Yes! Their authority files for names are just totally worthless trash. It's frustrating in the academic sphere, fucking life altering in other spheres
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:29pm
Doug in MP:

I just bought a new car and you wouldn't believe how much tracking they wanted to do and how many hoops I had to jump through to "disable" it
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:29pm
Handy Haversack:

It's the saddest part that not only are these companies utterly dominating even the questions we have to ask about information and privacy but also that they're just BAD at it. They don't have a clue what they're doing, but it's OK, all the consequences fall on us.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:29pm
Doug in MP:

Well, YOU guys would believe it
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:29pm
Handy Haversack:

↳ Doug in MP @6:29
Do you think you were able to disable it, Doug? I have wondered about that.
  6:30pm
castor:

Great interview! Wasn't this the plot point of Brazil???
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:30pm
Wendy del Formaggio:

Hello Mark and friends. I've been lurking (while I cook some chili) since the beginning of the show. It's great! And infuriating...
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:30pm
Doug in MP:

↳ Handy Haversack @6:29
Supposedly? I'm going to do a deep dive on finding the SM card / transmitter itself
  6:30pm
Sam:

↳ Doug in MP @6:29
Were there hidden microphones that record everything you say?
Avatar 6:30pm
Fredericks:

Bad data is like the cockroach in Terry Gilliam's Brazil. Tuttle...Buttle?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:31pm
Doug in MP:

↳ Sam @6:30
Probably, but it's mostly cursing anyway
  6:31pm
Miss G:

castor, I was about to start singing the theme song to Terry Gilliam's "Brazil" my guy would do that for every situation of this type
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:31pm
Webhamster Henry:

When I was working for an emergency notification company, I suggested that all contact info have a date associated with it so we could get an idea of the freshness of the contact, and to push for monthly tests of the system to double check on the accuracy of those contacts. There was immense pushback from management...
  6:31pm
Old Dave:

Had a great chat last night with my elementary school chum who is 'way up there in the IRS, undisclosed location, he says, but knowing him it's probable.
Money is flooding uphill to the "Point Zero Five" percent
and they can't stop it. His words. Tax fraud abounding in the US will continue to make the working class poorer and poorer.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:32pm
Handy Haversack:

↳ Doug in MP @6:30
Yeah, that's a good call. I have been picking up a lot of transmissions on your in-car fart rate, and I don't know how much longer I can keep deleting it!
  6:33pm
Dean:

I am no loyal defender of Lexis and Westlaw, which I use on a daily basis, but:
1) Law firm clients (meaning deep-pockets clients who have influence over their firms) have been pushing back on billing for years. They refuse to pay for Lexis/Westlaw research, because they believe--not unreasonably--that once upon a time legal research, using print materials, was an overhead absorbed by the firm and reflected in the firm's hourly rates. Clients now resist hourly rates with electronic services rates passed on.
2) Both Lexis and Westlaw add substantial value to the basic black-letter law. So, yes, while one can do no-cost research using, say, one's state legislature's website, one will not have the luxury of additional tools that make lawyering more productive and more efficient.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:33pm
Mark Hurst:

↳ Wendy del Formaggio @6:30
Thanks, Wendy. Same here - infuriating to learn all of this. Sorry to hear that listeners have experienced these things directly.
  6:33pm
Sam:

All that surveillance crap in the cars and on the street and they still can’t catch most of the hit and run drivers who kill pedestrians
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:33pm
Will thee Sound Guy:

I absolutely loathe subscription based learning systems... if you want to subscribe for updates maybe... dunno
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:33pm
Ken From Hyde Park:

In summary:
Data collection = heavy focus
Data correction = less so
Avatar 🤖 6:35pm
Bas NL:

In the NL Elsevier now charges big money for articles already published in print to become open source as demanded by Dutch law.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:35pm
Miss G:

Like, how could the new, young version of Greg Palast get information? (am I understanding correctly?)
  6:36pm
castor:

↳ Miss G @6:31
Such a prescient film!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:37pm
Doug in MP:

↳ Handy Haversack @6:32
These seats are brand new, I'm still holding it in
  6:37pm
chresti:

Hi mark and techtoniacs! The electricity is shut off for maintenance on our block.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:37pm
Handy Haversack:

↳ Sam @6:33
Sam: Unless it happens in a white neighborhood: nyc.streetsblog.org...
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:37pm
Mark Hurst:

@chresti thanks for logging in & hope the power comes back on soon!
Avatar 🤖 6:37pm
Bas NL:

I've heard it's about €1000 per article to be payed for by the author of the article.
  6:38pm
Lerch:

Academics have to publish in these "high impact" journals if they ever hope to get tenure.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:38pm
Barney Grubbs:

check out the company Academic Analytics as another example of a data-collecting/mining companies that sells data back to universities to tell them how they compare to other universities through application of some secret algorithms
  6:38pm
Dean:

UC recently struck a deal with Elsevier that in simple terms replaces subscription costs with publishing costs. Consequently, we now have open access to a huge portion of Elsevier publications at no additional cost (which, granted, was astronomical before the deal was struck).
  6:39pm
Lerch:

South America has the right idea with its SciElo publishing model. Although many in the global north deem it predatory. Ah, the irony.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:40pm
Webhamster Henry:

So how about a public initiative to get the already free accessible law data online indexed and provided with tools to navigate it?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:40pm
Webhamster Henry:

Also: Machine Learning can gobble that up and write new legisltion.
  6:40pm
Dean:

Mike Lissner at https://www.courtlistener.com/ is working mightily to accomplish what Sarah is describing. Mike partners with Carl Malamud. But see my comment above about added-value commentary.
  6:42pm
Old Dave:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPj-8_wOZcA

Anger is STILL an energy, even according to Fr Richard Rohr, a Catholic renegade of sorts with more followers than Justice Roberts, another Catholic.
  6:42pm
Dean:

But those two tiers have been around forever, well before the age of electronic access. No individual can afford a subscription to the Federal Reporter.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:42pm
Handy Haversack:

↳ Dean @6:40
But that value added is the same argument Google, Apple, Facebook, et al. use -- how can you give up the convenience of knowing your heartrate on your watch?! Our selling that info to your insurance company and anyone else who asks is a small price to pay for the added value.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:43pm
Miss G:

[sort of OT how long has Techtonic been on WFMU?]
  6:44pm
Dean:

Not quite the same, Handy. It genuinely is added value. Sarah just mentioned citators, which Lexis and Westlaw have developed largely to good effect. (In my experience, Lexis has encountered reliability issues with its Shepard's citator.)
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:44pm
Barney Grubbs:

↳ Dean @6:38
did elsevier ever pull access to uc schools during the negotiations? I won’t be surprised if we see similar efforts at SUNY schools, but I’m not convinced we’ll have anywhere close to the same amount of leverage.
  6:45pm
Vagabond:

How many of these commenters are data collecting robots?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:45pm
Doug in MP:

↳ Miss G @6:43
All Techtonic archives are here: www.wfmu.org...

First show was 9/11/17!
  6:45pm
Dean:

Elsevier pulled access to *new* publications when UC declined to renew subscriptions. This set the stage for negotiations that resulted in the recent agreement.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:46pm
Doug in MP:

I love Techtonic because it's like a much more serious version of Off The Hook
Avatar 🤖 6:46pm
Bas NL:

Remembering Aaron Swartz. en.wikipedia.org...
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:47pm
Miss G:

Thank you so much Doug in MP! My guy would have been so all up in this show. He has so many books on these topics. But he just predeceased the show's beginning
  6:47pm
Dean:

The Lexis and Westlaw added value is independent of the surveillance issues.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:48pm
Barno in Akron:

↳ Mark Hurst @6:10
Hi Mark - I'm a long-time lurker, fan and Sheena's DJ. I am grateful that your show is on WFMU. You may be interested in this presentation from last month by my friend Karen Kilroy, CEO of Kilroy Blockchain. In this video, Karen explains her book, "Blockchain Tethered AI" (O'Reilly, 2023), in terms anyone can understand. During this presentation, Karen discusses:

Learn how AI is different from other software like spreadsheets or email programs.
Understand why AI is a real concern and learn the impact of mysterious terms like black box, program synthesis, singularity and back doors.
Learn how blockchain makes food traceable and trackable, and how this same idea can be applied to AI's supply chain.
Learn what can be done to make AI better so it is not dangerous. If you'd like, I'd be happy to make an introduction. www.youtube.com...
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:48pm
Doug in MP:

↳ Miss G @6:47
You're welcome. I'm really sorry for your loss, I bet he was an interesting guy
  6:49pm
Rolando:

Terrifying !!!!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:49pm
Handy Haversack:

↳ Barno in Akron @6:48
Barno, I didn't even realize you had a show on Sheena! I'm an idiot.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:49pm
chris in the redwoods:

wow, we are sooo screwed!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:49pm
Miss G:

Thank you so much Sarah Lamdan you explained everything really clearly. I will look for your book at Chop Suey Books in Richmond VA
  6:49pm
wind:

Yup
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:50pm
Barney Grubbs:

↳ Dean @6:45
thanks—in chemistry we can probably survive on sporadic ILL requests for new elsevier stuff, but I suspect that won’t be true for med schools & some other disciplines, so I guess things will probably depend on how put out they get.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:51pm
Miss G:

↳ Doug in MP @6:48
Oh gosh thank you Doug in MP. We talked every morning about these things we called it "coffee achieving" (and laughed the rest of the day about other things.)
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:51pm
Barno in Akron:

↳ Handy Haversack @6:49
Hi, Handy! You're not an idiot :) My show is a comedy music show called, Cheek in Tongues - Every Monday at 8PM - I hope to see you there in an hour :)
  6:52pm
Dean:

West also got in trouble not too many years ago for allegedly failing to make substantial revisions to their annual publication supplements that law libraries routinely purchase. If you own title X, you'll want to supplement it between editions with annual updates. Some lawyers reported that the substantive differences between supplements were minute, but the cost remained high.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:52pm
Miss G:

↳ Miss G @6:51
(he also loved prog very much and I'm trying to learn so I hope I can get to Dave Mandl's show in the next weeks)
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:53pm
Handy Haversack:

↳ Miss G @6:52
It's a great show, Miss G. And very welcoming! Always a joy when you're on the boards.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:54pm
Doug in MP:

↳ Miss G @6:52
You should! I don't know how representative it is of mainstream prog, but that's fine
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:55pm
Handy Haversack:

↳ Barno in Akron @6:51
I will check it out ASAP, Barno! Hard to tear myself away from Vocal Fry, but I can jump back and forth and/or check the Archives!
Avatar 6:55pm
Juli:

Darn missed the Techtonic
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:55pm
Miss G:

HH you are so kind. Doug in MP, any prog, is more prog, than I've ever allowed into my snarly punkette ears LOL THank You Mark Hurst!!!
  6:56pm
Ochre Ogre:

Intruding bastards
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:56pm
Handy Haversack:

Mark, another fantastic gift of an episode! Many thanks. And to Sarah. Keep up the good work!
Avatar 🤖 6:56pm
Bas NL:

Thanks Mark & Sarah!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:56pm
Wendy del Formaggio:

Thank you, Mark. Another excellent program.
  6:56pm
Ochre Ogre:

Thanks Mark!
  6:56pm
wind:

Zukunft pink
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm
Barno in Akron:

↳ Handy Haversack @6:55
Awesome, Handy. Let me know what you think! Have a nice night!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm
coelacanth∅:

Thank you Mark
  6:57pm
Vagabond:

Positive reinforcement and affirmation of progress toward the greatest possible goodness is the best motivator that allows the greatest learning and growth.
Avatar 🤖 6:57pm
MarciB:

Now I want to move to Berlin even more!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:58pm
coelacanth∅:

and Thanks Sarah Lamdan
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:58pm
Will thee Sound Guy:

Thank you Mark Hurst and Sarah Lamdan! More damning information... we're all doomed
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:58pm
Miss G:

(my friend's uncle was shot in the NL town square for destroying the town documents as the Nazis came in. . .)
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:59pm
Handy Haversack:

German dump button! There has to be a word for that in German.
  6:59pm
Sam:

Great show as usual! Bye Mark and Doug and everyone!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:59pm
listener 126464:

Thanks Mark, thanks Sarah.
Avatar 🤖 7:00pm
Bas NL:

Dumpfknopf.
  7:00pm
Sam:

Das dumpferbuten
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 7:02pm
Handy Haversack:

We've done good work here.
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