Options Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from November 27, 2017 Options

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Conversations with creators and thinkers who are charting the way forward in a tech-saturated society. Tech, community, video games, and whatever else is next.

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Options November 27, 2017: Tech on campus, feat. a Real Live College Student. Also, Net Neutrality news

Listen to this show: MP3 - 128K | | Add or read comments



This week, discussing tech on campus with a real live college student. But first, news on net neutrality:

Pro-net neutrality...

Comic strip about net neutrality (NSFW language)
New York Times: "The FCC plans to dismantle.. equal access to the internet, clearing the way for companies to charge more and block access to some websites"
Reddit post summarizing recent news (from a pro-net-neutrality angle)
• Also from Reddit, see this comment from a user who has lived through non-neutral Internet access
Ars Technica article on Comcast rolling back its promise to support open internet access

...and questioning the importance of net neutrality:

Bloomberg article: "Have you ever used your Kindle to connect to wireless to download new books from your Amazon account? That too is a kind of nonneutrality. You can download the books, but you can’t use that same wireless connection for more general purposes."
Another Bloomberg article points out that "China has proven very effective at censoring the internet, and as market power has consolidated in the tech industry, so have [American] private firms... our experience of the internet is increasingly controlled by a handful of firms, most especially Google and Facebook."
Comments on Philip Greenspun's blog question the effectiveness of a government-regulated solution.

Tech on campus pointers:

How Evil Is Tech? by David Brooks
Laptops Are Great. But Not During a Lecture or a Meeting. by Susan Dynarski, U. Michigan professor

Finally, subscribe to the Techtonic podcast to catch up on past episodes.

Artist Track Images Approx. start time
  Tech on campus: Mark interviews a real live university student to understand how tech is affecting college life. Also: Mark's comments on net neutrality.
Tomaš Dvořák  Game Boy Tune   Options    
  Mark's intro and Net Neutrality comments  
Options
0:02:16 (MP3 | )
  Interview with Real Live College Student  
Options
0:21:44 (MP3 | )
  Clips: How tech affects students     0:33:26 (MP3 | )
  Your comments and calls at 201-209-9368     0:46:38 (MP3 | )
Andy Rehfeldt  Can't Touch This / Tiny Dancer (Andy Rehfeldt mashup)   Options   0:56:44 (MP3 | )

Listener comments!

Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 6:03pm melinda:

hi all!
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 6:05pm listener james from westwood:

Evening, Mark, melinda, and all!
     Mon. 11/27/17 6:07pm Listener Robert:

How did WFMU's streaming fare BEFORE net neutrality was adopted ~2 yrs. ago?
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 6:11pm Linda Lee:

so pleased to hear Techtonic tonight. good evening everyone.
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 6:12pm Linda Lee:

do believe it's older than that, Listener Robert :-)
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 6:13pm Ken From Hyde Park:

Net Neuter-ality
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 6:13pm Michael 98145:

@LR, i believe there was some throttling performed by monopolies like Comcast
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 6:14pm Linda Lee:

didn't feel it!
good comic.
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 6:14pm Michael 98145:

... but that only hit large file downloads
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 6:16pm Linda Lee:

what was the "founding spirit" of US military development of the web? do wonder about that.
     Mon. 11/27/17 6:16pm Listener Robert:

No, it was discussed for many yrs., and not adopted by Congress, but the FCC adopted it by interpretation only about 2 yrs. ago.
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 6:18pm Linda Lee:

ah. ok.
it's been under attack for longer than it's been official then.
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 6:20pm Michael 98145:

the internetwork was developed to provide connectivity without specific message routing
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 6:21pm Tommy in Neversink:

Congress doesn't decide , go to the FCC's site and comment
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 6:21pm Evan From Seattle:

Facebook, Google, Amazon are in favor of net neutrality because its good for everyone and keeps them from having to pay more to retain users. But if it goes away, they are the ones that would benefit almost as much as the utility companies since the barrier to entry for any online enterprise would go way up because they could pay to keep everyone out of the fast lane (and create their own for the "little people" - basically like what Amazon already does with their 3rd party sellers). Its a grim future, even more so without net neutrality.
  Mon. 11/27/17 6:22pm Barbara:

Thank you for this clear and insightful analysis. I really needed to hear it. Please archive as soon as possible. It needs to be heard widely.
     Mon. 11/27/17 6:22pm Listener Robert:

But 20 yrs. ago we HAD companies offering these private nets with gateways to the Internet, and the Internet won. That is, the traffic wound up going overwhelmingly thru the Internet rather than to the private content -- and prices came down, too.

So what would make you think companies would want to go back to the less profitable service they couldn't sell then?
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 6:22pm Mark Hurst:

Hi all! Thanks for the good comments. Will be drawing on these comments & your calls later in the show.
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 6:24pm Michael 98145:

i remember the days when -networking- meant leased phone lines
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 6:24pm Linda Lee:

@Tommy in Neversink ~ yes, 5 people are in charge of this decision. ~ beta.latimes.com...
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 6:25pm Tommy in Neversink:

Robert, IKR......that's what I keep thinking . Net Neutrality didn't' start until 2015 and the net worked pretty good before that
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 6:26pm Tommy in Neversink:

Linda....yes, two will vote to keep neutrality and 3 will vote against it , as it stand now
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 6:27pm Evan From Seattle:

20 years ago what happened was broadband started going mainstream. Cable and DSL. Private networks, that you used to be able to get your dial up internet access from back in the day started trying to compete by offering DSL packages, but they died because the landscape became less about choice and more about speed, and the phone companies that controlled the infrastructure came out with their own offerings that killed the small providers, many of who moved into business networking infrastructure if they were able to survive. And nobody could compete with cable for the same reason, because they controlled the infrastructure and nobody could use it. That's why there's like "two" competing DSL providers in an area but only the one cable company.
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 6:29pm Michael 98145:

turn off your instagram and listen to music - www.instagram.com...
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 6:30pm Tommy in Neversink:

Evan....you sure do your homework
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 6:30pm listener james from westwood:

No easily dorm-accessible internet back during my college days; had I gone merely a couple of years later, I'd have been in the AOL/Compuserve era. Had I gone post-FB et al, I'd have a GPA of like –3.
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 6:31pm melinda:

@james same here.
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 6:32pm Michael 98145:

never realized in 1989 that today i'd be listening to FMU
Avatar Mon. 11/27/17 6:33pm βrian:

I love that you can punctuate easily on an iPhone, or add diacritics. But beyond that ...
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 6:34pm Tommy in Neversink:

Why is assumed that the providers will be anti -progressive. We are probably over half their market
Avatar Mon. 11/27/17 6:34pm βrian:

Not cutting down trees; burning oil/coal instead.
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 6:34pm steve:

in the past year ive killed all my non-business related facebook, twitter, instagram and now am looking to downgrade from my iphone... but i *need* a map to find my way around nyc and elsewhere... is there halfway point between a classic flip phone and a smartphone that will give me google maps or something similar but no web browser etc... or should i revert to paper maps (which i'd be open to)?
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 6:36pm dale:

i've never had a smart phone. last flip phone was an lg that i had for 8 years and i only upgraded to a bigger lg flip phone because my eyes weren't what they were.
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 6:36pm listener james from westwood:

Good interview and slice of life! Interesting that he and others at UVA struggle w/ deleting apps, kicking the habit, etc. Breaks the stereotype of unheeding, mindless use of social media that some folks my age & older have re: the yout', as Joe Pesci might say.
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 6:36pm coelacanth∅:

i have a "smartphone" with a call/text plan. $15./month. i would've preferred a basic flip phone but they don't offer them, even though it's a non-internet plan.
...i fucking hate the touch screen bullshit. so inefficient and illogical.
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 6:37pm melinda:

I like paper maps.
  Mon. 11/27/17 6:37pm Dean:

A colleague of mine, Diane Mizrachi at UCLA, has been studying undergraduate students' preferences for print or digital when they study. There are strong preferences for print.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0099133315000506
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 6:38pm coelacanth∅:

steve they (you know -"they") sell excellent laminated maps of the city, and a different one of the 5 boroughs, that fold into a manageable size. a good investment.
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 6:38pm Evan From Seattle:

Thanks Tommy, but I just lived through it and watched it happen from having internet early on to relying on it for my work today. And the providers will be anti-progressive because its more profitable. Businesses don't have ideals beyond making money. And there's a lot more money to be made by controlling the flow of information than doing something nice for people.
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 6:39pm dale:

my wife is browsing on her smart phone right now - even though she has a laptop and an ipad and desktop computer. i'm sure she goes way over her time/data.
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 6:39pm steve:

another reason social media breaks people's brains (maybe he said this) is that it tells people to rely on external rewards (likes, which simply equal approval of others) rather than internal rewards.
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 6:40pm steve:

good advice coela... i remember those! i used to have one of manhattan.
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 6:41pm Evan From Seattle:

Also, as more and more people have cut the cord internet providers such as comcast have put in data transfer limits. I've gotten hit with warnings from them about it just from backing up my 15+ years of digital family photo archives to cloud service backups. This is going to continue and prices will go up across the board without net neutrality.
Avatar Mon. 11/27/17 6:41pm βrian:

Three days of complete solitude, at least once every year or two.
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 6:42pm Linda Lee:

stands to reason that less direct social engagement = depression. that's a given. & girls will own up.
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 6:42pm Evan From Seattle:

Facebook I believe got busted for experimenting with their news feed algorithim a few months ago to manipulate people into seeing depressing stuff then serving them more targeted ads. There was some sort of trouble with the EU about it, I think it was in France. They are evil incarnate.
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 6:44pm melinda:

Not at all surprising that laptops and tablets are distractions.
Avatar Mon. 11/27/17 6:44pm βrian:

Screen discipline comes from within.
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 6:44pm Linda Lee:

~Tommy ~ i'm assuming attention to the bottom line primarily is always regressive.
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 6:45pm Ken From Hyde Park:

The school district here is rolling out Chromebooks for all the students. Erk!
Avatar Mon. 11/27/17 6:45pm βrian:

@Hey, Melinda!
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 6:45pm melinda:

hi Brian!
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 6:46pm Linda Lee:

apparently still allowed here in the states, Evan.
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 6:46pm Krys O.:

I believe that depressive behavior in teenage girls predates the smartphone. It's a societal issue, not one of technology. There are SO MANY other reasons why young women begin to show a marked increase in low self-esteem. I am skeptical of the corollary drawn in the study that Brooks quotes. Oh, and Brooks is notorious for making uninformed leaps of logic.
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 6:46pm Linda Lee:

steve, i think we always rely on external rewards. human nature ~ which is being exploited.
Avatar Mon. 11/27/17 6:47pm βrian:

@Melinda: Watched Fishing with John, if you didn't get my ping. Lovely! Thanks.
Avatar Mon. 11/27/17 6:48pm βrian:

SAYPs!
Avatar Mon. 11/27/17 6:48pm Phil with the phone:

Call in at 201-209-9368!
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 6:48pm Evan From Seattle:

The other problem with losing net neutrality is we can say goodbye to entrepreneurship and the myth of "just a guy in his garage with a great idea" that seems to have started with Steve Jobs but is now attached to Jeff Bezos. It's hard enough as it is to make a go with a legitimate business without serious funding, let alone a startup, but imagine if you can't get your app or information about it out there without substantially paying, or that people interested might not be able to go to your site because their plan only includes Facebook and Amazon, and closes off the rest of the net. I'll shut up now, I'm just so glad to have a place to discuss this and hear about it on WFMU. Such a great show.
Avatar Mon. 11/27/17 6:48pm Phil with the phone:

I am the greatest
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 6:48pm Linda Lee:

Krys O, aren't they discussing an *increase* in symptoms from some determined baseline?
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 6:49pm Linda Lee:

not that i'm a fan of David Brooks. he's silly.
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 6:49pm melinda:

@Ken that seems to be a trend. At my niece's school they wanted to buy new laptops while neglecting basic infrastructure like decrepit bathrooms.
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 6:49pm steve:

i teach college and absolutely refuse to allow students on Facebook. lately i tell them on the first day of class, if i ever catch you on Facebook during class, i will open the window (we're high up in a tall building) take your laptop, throw it at someone in the street and try to hit them, then when the cops come i'll tell them you did it. then when you're in jail i'll make an appointment to come visit you to apologize, and have you sitting there waiting and not show up.
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 6:49pm melinda:

@Brian I didn't get the ping, but glad you liked it! I avoided it for years for some reason and then wondered why.
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 6:50pm steve:

you're doin a great job Phil
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 6:50pm Linda Lee:

steve ~ great flair for drama there :-)
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 6:51pm Evan From Seattle:

steve you are the best professor ever just from that.
Avatar Mon. 11/27/17 6:51pm βrian:

"Gantlet," not "Gauntlet!"
Avatar Mon. 11/27/17 6:51pm glenn:

i like steve's attitude.
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 6:51pm Carmichael:

I'm old, so I'm not glued to my phone like my daughters. But this is still a big business power play.
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 6:51pm Linda Lee:

hello dark web!
  Mon. 11/27/17 6:51pm rw:

In my experience one way to reduce kids’ phone time is for their parents to limit their own phone time.
Avatar Mon. 11/27/17 6:51pm βrian:

[Sorry!]
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 6:52pm Linda Lee:

too sensible rw ~
Avatar Mon. 11/27/17 6:52pm glenn:

i wouldn't have the faintest idea about accessing the dark web.
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 6:52pm listener james from westwood:

The FCC targets grass-roots efforts to set up alternate networks. There's one afoot in Detroit to bring net to access deserts; expect it to be attacked if NN gets the axe, esp. b/c it's something that benefits nonwhites.
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 6:52pm Linda Lee:

@glenn ~ not too hard, apparently.
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 6:52pm Krys O.:

Depression in adolescence on NIH.gov

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
  Mon. 11/27/17 6:53pm Dean:

I've said it before on this comment board: Treating social networks as "digital technology," mere electronic tools suitable for performing certain functions in certain contexts, misses the network effect factor. These are not "just tools," because unlike ordinary tools--hammers, can openers, even automobiles, to some extent--we can't successfully use them unless many, many others adopt them, too. Thus, there is extraordinary pressure to adopt them, not only from vendors but from other users.
Avatar Mon. 11/27/17 6:53pm βrian:

Waiting for the band, "Dire Detroit."
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 6:53pm Evan From Seattle:

They're not just tools they're weapons.
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 6:54pm Linda Lee:

thanks for the link Krys O! so, are we talking about an increase in symptoms empirically observed? must i really read David Brooks for his sources? :-D
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 6:54pm Tommy in Neversink:

What about all the liberal billionaires getting together and starting their own version of Comcast for people who want an open internet
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 6:55pm dale:

i remember when calculators were banned in my physics class. but we could still hold a big handful of liquid mercury.
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 6:55pm Michael 98145:

now & then cities talk about setting up a public internet service provider -- not sure if any have succeeded
Avatar Mon. 11/27/17 6:56pm βrian:

Ok, again, I think we need a Zazen segment in the classroom.
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 6:56pm northguineahills:

Thanks Mark, good talk!
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 6:56pm Linda Lee:

@Dean ~ yep, inexact analogy.
@Tommy in Neversink ~ assuming billionaires as a class always look for reasonable return on investment. incompatible with free access to information.
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 6:56pm Evan From Seattle:

lol when you have billions there is no liberal or conservative only "how to i turn this into trillions?" everything else is just posturing.
  Mon. 11/27/17 6:56pm Bea:

I find it distracting when people are on laptops in meetings and looking at social media/unrelated websites!
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 6:56pm Linda Lee:

agree Evan.
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 6:57pm coelacanth∅:

so far, optimum hasn't been caught trying to limit the internet, as far as i know.
Avatar Mon. 11/27/17 6:57pm βrian:

52nd & Broadway? Is that in Des Moines?
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 6:57pm Michael 98145:

thanks for this discussion
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 6:57pm northguineahills:

I always stand to the side when I look at my phone when I walk on the sidewalk.
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 6:58pm melinda:

I don't think it's unreasonable to ban laptops from a classroom, given the addictive qualities of screen devices.
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 6:58pm Linda Lee:

thank you Mark.
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 6:58pm Ken From Hyde Park:

Jeff Bezos' net worth reached $100 billion over the weekend. Crimony!
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 6:58pm coelacanth∅:

Thanks Mark
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 6:58pm Linda Lee:

melinda ~ the phones have to go too, then.
Avatar Mon. 11/27/17 6:58pm Phil with the phone:

what a jam
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 6:59pm listener james from westwood:

Thanks for the comprehensive program and the bevy of links, too!
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 6:59pm dale:

tiny rap dancer!
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 6:59pm melinda:

@Linda some teachers do that too.
  Mon. 11/27/17 6:59pm Bea:

Dale - you beat me to the punch!
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 7:00pm Linda Lee:

i would do so, if i taught. it's hard enough to engage them ..
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 7:00pm Linda Lee:

unfortunately we're dealing with addiction syndromes now.
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 7:01pm melinda:

I would ban devices as well.
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 7:01pm Michael 98145:

pass me the claret
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 7:01pm Krys O.:

@Linda Lee The gist of the NIH article is that depression has organic or genetic connections and it's not a completely learned behavior. Blaming technology does no good especially in the interest of mental health which could actually derive some benefit from technology facilitating communication.
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 7:01pm Linda Lee:

could be counter productive to pull a device from someone who can't engage at all. best to use the technology in teaching, ultimately. restrict access to bullsh*t.
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 7:03pm Linda Lee:

Krys O ~ so, not either/or really. that makes sense too.
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 7:03pm Krys O.:

In the past television and popular music were blamed for the corrupting our youth.
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 7:04pm Linda Lee:

not entirely wrong either. in terms of instilling consumerism, for example.
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 7:04pm Linda Lee:

.. which isn't a healthy behavior.
Avatar Swag For Life Member Mon. 11/27/17 7:05pm Linda Lee:

.. but i'm aware that wasn't generally the kind of corruption that was frowned upon by authorities.
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 7:10pm Krys O.:

From personal experience, social media and technology helped me to leave an abusive relationship and it helps me to communicate with my doctor about my health issues.
Avatar Swag For Life Member    Mon. 11/27/17 7:12pm melinda:

I meant I would ban devices in the classroom unless they are necessary for in-class work. They can help people engage in other contexts but in the classroom it's a distraction.
Avatar Swag For Life Member Tue. 11/28/17 12:05am Webhamster Henry:

Hi - I was away, otherwise I'd have put in my two cents. Or maybe a quarter.

One way to stop FB usage in the class or workplace is to stop having classes or work - that's going to happen sooner than you think.(cf the AI show)

Another is to put the restricted wifi zone in a Faraday cage, and only allow access on a super firewalled internal network. They will still be able to to mesh network among themselves, but will need at least one leak to hit the unrestricted big I Internet.

Online distraction predates the Internet and text messaging, via dialup to big commercial and privately hosted BBSes, and before then, on interoffice mail systems. There was good old note passing and whispering too.
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